Lets's stop trying to put a value on Sako pieces!

[ricksengines]

Folks, I wish we would go back to our original position of not trying to estimate value of any Sako pieces presented by newbies or anyone asking for value. Without actually having the piece in hand putting a value on the thing is a crap shoot at best. Instead I would suggest that we decline to do so and instead refer the person to the many auction sites where they could get an idea of the value of their piece.

This position use to be part of our basic approach. Lately were are responding to value requests more and more. Most of us do this in an effort to help out but I think that it dilutes our credibility. So fellow contributors let's get back to basics and put an end to this. After all, in most cases we are only building false expectations in the mind of those asking the question.

rick

 

[sakojim]

I second the motion. VOTE
All in favor, just don't respond to these requests.
Problem solved.
Sakojim

 

[paulsonconstruction]

I third the motion!! In the first place it's impossible & if you do, they don't like what they here anyway. Just ignore any first time post that contains "What's it worth?"

 

[CVCOBRA1]

Plus the fact that ones opinion of what is very good, great, or mint condition might be different from others. Most of those that are asking probably don't even realize they are talking about rifles that could easily be fifty years old. As for pics, that is one of my peeves. Too few and very poor quality just won't cut it. What I really can't get is that sellers want high dollar for an item and then only post four or five pics and expect the bidding to sky rocket.

 

[ricksengines]

I think that we have to respond to these types of requests. The issue is how we respond. Steering the requestor to auction websites or other sites like GI or Proxybid would be better that trying to guestimate value based on little to no information short of actually having the piece in hand. Trying to put a value on a piece affects our credibility.

 

[cl_leg]

I use these forums to share information. If someone asks, I will do my best share any information I can with them. By all means, if you do not want to participate feel free not to.

 

[ricksengines]

Not putting a value on a firearm is not refusing to share information. Would you buy a car if you only had a picture of the steering wheel and a front bumper? I think not. If you can value a firearm by looking at the pictures we typically get more power to you. I personally believe that the forum was not designed as a sounding board for valuing Sako anything given the limited amount of information you can glean from a few pictures.

rick

 

[cl_leg]

Not putting a value on a firearm is not refusing to share information. Would you buy a car if you only had a picture of the steering wheel and a front bumper? I think not. If you can value a firearm by looking at the pictures we typically get more power to you. I personally believe that the forum was not designed as a sounding board for valuing Sako anything given the limited amount of information you can glean from a few pictures.

rick

So in the future we will not see any more evaluations from yourself and possible few others? Seems too easy.

Chris

 

[mlesh]

I'm a fairly new member, with a very small touch of Sako back round. I look forward to the opinions, from the members that have decades of knowledge to share. This site has so much knowledge to share with anyone who really wants to learn or needs advice. I hope you don't let just one person affect the way all of you interact with people seeking advice or help. mike

 

[kirkbridgershooters]

To each his own. Casey is a wise-ass and came to stir up the pot. He got that done and no one is the better for it. I never have been able to let a good fight go unchallenged and will remain that way. Being polite stops when the other guy crosses the line, Casey crossed that line.

 

[bigcountry4me]

This is a difficult balance because we folks with good intentions genuinely want to be helpful and educating. But lately we’ve had a couple of people with a high degree of “douche-baggery” show up and cop an attitude.

I will be the first to admit wanting to help those who are not as experienced with value to only give an honest opinion. As hard as I try to install qualifiers to ANY opinion given, it seems to bite me in the ass nearly every time.

This is not to suggest I will not help someone in the future to perhaps determine a baseline. But, I’ll probably PM someone my opinion outside the public forum, unless of course, I detect “douche-baggery” in the initial post or inquiry.

 

[sakojim]

Sean, I agree with you completely. I enjoy helping others if I have useful information to share. But the problem with evaluation is due to limited information concerning intended use and it is better to ignore the request. First of all there are so many different intentions for the use of rifles that this make a tremendous difference in the value to different buyers. Some 'shooters' of preferred caliber will bring much higher prices from some one that is looking for performance at the range or hunting. This leads to a scarcity of that particular caliber and if it shows up in a scarce model Sako the value shifts into collector category and the value is very unpredictable. So the bottom line is that it would save a lot of nasty encounters such as we are discussing if this website totally eliminated the practice simply because as stated many times the value of any item cannot be determined until the buyer and seller reach an agreement and the sale is concluded. Sakojim.

 

[stonecreek]

I fully agree that the one-time visitor to our forum who wonders "what's my great uncle's Sako .30-06 worth" who posts a description stating only the caliber along with a fuzzy photo of the middle one-third of a rifle is a problem. Someone usually tells him that he needs to list all of the markings on the rifle along with posting a set of several photos showing both the entire rifle and some close-ups of the markings. Sometimes he will do his best to do so, and sometimes he will have neither the ability to do better photos nor the capacity to more fully describe the rifle.

It seems like too many of these low-information Sako owners are somehow convinced that their rifle is worth much more than its reasonable market value and are exceedingly disappointed in the sincere responses they get -- some of them to the point of becoming offensive. A guy who thinks his standard A-V 7mm Rem with the screw-on muzzle brake and replaced recoil pad is worth $2,000 can get downright belligerent when told it will bring less than half of that.

But the larger question is can we put a reasonably accurate value on a firearm with only photos and a written description? Well, thousands of people, including many of us, do it every day on internet auction sites, and do it with real money, not just hot air. And we're even recommending that curious Sako owners refer to such auction sites to determine the value of their rifles, even though those values have been set in a market which depends solely on photos and descriptions! So it seems disingenuous to claim that "you can't value a gun just by pictures and descriptions".

Several things are true about valuing a rifle via internet photos and descriptions, whether it is here on the SCC forum, or Gunbroker, or Guns International, or GunAuction, or . . . ad infinitum:

1. The better and more complete the photos are the more accurate an appraisal can be made of a rifle, so it usually sells for closer to its optimum value with good photos.

2. The better and more complete the description, including the smallest modifications, usage signs, or cosmetic marks then the closer to optimum the item sells.

3. The better-known the seller is with a good track record then the higher the item will sell, all things being equal.

4. Internet selling prices are usually a bit less than in-person selling prices since buyers must hedge a bit to allow for unseen shortcomings or issues which may not have been accurately described.

5. And finally, "asking" prices are totally meaningless since the vast majority of the listings on internet sites never sell, so only actual "sold" items are indicative of the real market.

Actually, I very much enjoy seeing what others think of the value of a given Sako. I may know what my personal opinion is, but my personal opinion isn't what makes the market -- the market is a combination of the opinions of all of us. The only reason that my opinions are anywhere close to valid is that my opinions are largely based on the consensus of everybody else's opinions.

For instance, I believe that any Finnwolf in decent condition is now worth about $1,500 for starters. But if I didn't have the luxury of seeing what others think then I wouldn't value it any higher than a standard L579 in the same caliber since they sold for about the same money when new.

I may know what calibers I like and enjoy shooting, but identical Sakos which sold new for the same money now have a significant variation in value simply due to their caliber. I can only know of that difference by how the market acts, not my personal predisposition toward one or another caliber.

So yes, I'd say we encourage those who "just want to know what it's worth since I'd never sell my grandfather's rifle" to get a wider set of opinions by researching similar items in the sold section of internet auctions. But we also know of many small and particular details which add or detract from the market value of a Sako which someone making an inquiry cannot know to look for in the sold section of internet auctions. I really do want to know what Rick, or Paulson, or Sean, or Kirk, or any of us think of a Sako that someone inquires about. It is a help to me. I value your opinions. So let's be selective in offering opinions of value and avoid offering opinions based on insufficient information. But I hope that everyone will continue to help the Sako Brotherhood keep abreast of the ever-moving market and values of the rifles we love.

 

[marlin92]

Maybe we should create a checklist of things that are mandatory in order to attempt valuation of a firearm. We make it clear to the requestor that they must satisfy the requirements or no valuation attempt will be made.
I like Stone like seeing others firearms and valuations, there always seems to be something to learn as the eagle eyes of our members see things that I for one overlook, so it is an education. Plus all of the history that comes out in the comments is fantastic.
Just my 2 cents

 

[ricksengines]

Stone and others, all I am talking about is putting a value on a piece that someone is asking about. I too enjoy finding out about Sako pieces that members bring to our attention. All I'm trying to say is lets not try to put a value on them. If a member desires to do so lets take that offline in a private conversation.

rick

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Stone and others, all I am talking about is putting a value on a piece that someone is asking about. I too enjoy finding out about Sako pieces that members bring to our attention. All I'm trying to say is lets not try to put a value on them. If a member desires to do so lets take that offline in a private conversation.

rick

PM is a good idea. Keeps the disagreements contained & the reactionary insults out of sight.

 

[kirkbridgershooters]

One idiot and we want to restrict open discussion of Sako rifles and their values. If you want to pm and have private conversations, I say go for it, but this is unnecessary to go to these measures over something this minor.

There are rules about selling rifles here and plenty of guidelines to make this a pleasant and informative site for open discourse on Sakos and related subjects and I believe we all want to keep it that way.

I am not in favor of any additional measures to restrict free exchange of values, ideas or differences of opinion as we are all adults and I am sure we can maintain the integrity of this site without addition moderation.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

One idiot and we want to restrict open discussion of Sako rifles and their values. If you want to pm and have private conversations, I say go for it, but this is unnecessary to go to these measures over something this minor.

There are rules about selling rifles here and plenty of guidelines to make this a pleasant and informative site for open discourse on Sakos and related subjects and I believe we all want to keep it that way.

I am not in favor of any additional measures to restrict free exchange of values, ideas or differences of opinion as we are all adults and I am sure we can maintain the integrity of this site without addition moderation.

I agree that we should not nor can we put restrictions on the exchange of opinions on the forum, but there have been more than just the last "idiot's" thread about valuation recently that have turn ugly for no real reason, other than differences in what others think a rifle is worth. Arguments over money are always disgusting. This thread hopefully gives our membership a chance to reflect on how we respond to these "What's it worth?" posts in the future. It seems that most new members just join to get a free appraisal because they are too lazy to do the minor amount of research to find out for themselves. Once they get a value, whether correct or not, we never here from them again. I for one don't want this forum to turn into a free internet appraisal service for Sako rifles, but stay a place to discuss & exchange information about them. How do we do that? I think it's up to each member to decide. I do know that it is impossible for me to properly evaluate & appraise a firearm over the internet. That being the case, I will refrain from participating in any future "What's it worth?" threads. Just my two cents.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

I have never looked at those "Blue Book" of Gun Values so I don't know if they are even close. Are Sako's even in there? If they really do want a value it could always be put on Gunbroker with a very high reserve for protection. The last bid might somewhat give an idea of what it might be worth. Not always but maybe. The Gunbroker fee would simply be a paid appraisal. LOL.......

 

[ricksengines]

For what its worth, I think that between GunBroker. Guns International and Proxibid one could get a pretty good idea of value. I do agree with Paul about people coming to us and using our expertise as an appraisal service. Typically they don't or can't provide sufficient pics or info so we could get close. But most of the time they believe that their piece is worth much more than it actually is. In actual reality the market place ultimately determines value. I recently had a private inquiry about a Sako where the owner placed a pretty high price on the piece. I avoided putting a value on the thing and instead advised the potential buyer to wait until a better piece comes along. The shortcomings associated with the sellers item significantly reduced its value and I personally would not have considered buying it for half the asking price. So rather than go there I determined that it would be wiser to advise our member to wait knowing that better Sakos' were out there and waiting for one of them to come along would be the wisest decision.

Remember how I started this thread. Lets get back to our original basics and avoid trying to put a value on any Sako that is brought to us for that purpose. This position use to be part of our original approach. That doesn't mean withholding information it does mean that we take a more conservative approach to valuation requests.

rick