exceeding COL?

[Arian]

Hey, so yet another paranoid noob post by me. My tarvas load is on hold due to component shortage but i got my hands on a kilo of n130 from someone who lost their license (for free) and a couple dosen of lapua 8g fmj and lapua 6.5g hpbt fmj.

how they shoot will ofcourse be a matter of ladder testing but i am a bit puzzled by the COL, I assume the listed COL is going to be safe but when i measure them to my lands they vary quite a bit.

the COL in the recipes is 79.8mm for both bullets, this would have the 6.5g kissing the lands and the 8g 2mm off the lands. Does that sound right? the person who gave me my reloading stuff said to just reform a case enough to hold on to a bullet lightly, chamber it to push the bullet into the case, remove it and back it up about 0.5mm-1mm to get a good starting seating depth for any bullet.

i assume messing with depth could also overpressure my load?

 

[Arian]

finally some results. 6.5g lapua papercutters with n130 powder. COL 79.8 wich for this bullet puts it up against the lands. rws primers, charges ranged 2.75g to 3.15g the ones below 2.95 where really really bad. from 2.95 things inprove.

all shots felt good, a stable rest was used. Rifle was cleaned to shiny between each group and fouled with 3 shots of sako range.

i can not explain the flyer at 3.15g, il assume u human error until i tested 10 or so more.

you will notice one group being a hole short, that was a slamfire wich i havent been able to explain yet, safety was on, primer undented (even after the slamfire) and it went off as i rotated the bolt into battery.

3.15g is the max load listed, recoil felt light compared to some Factory ammo. primer looked slightly flatter than the others but nowhere near worrying. Bolt opened normally

So how should i proceed? increase powder charge or mess with COL a bit?

 

[bloorooster]

If you were a contestant on Forged in Fire
Doug would tell you “Your gun will Keel!”
Not bad groups for hunting rifles but you can definitely get better results once you find the perfect recipe!
Good luck and good shooting!

Additionally: you might consider reducing your strings to 3 shot groups..it’s a bit more affordable and will lend to better groupings. Load development can be costly with fickle barrels

 

[Arian]

If you were a contestant on Forged in Fire
Doug would tell you “Your gun will Keel!”
Not bad groups for hunting rifles but you can definitely get better results once you find the perfect recipe!
Good luck and good shooting!

the webpage malfunctioned while writing and wouldnt let me continie typing, i edited it to contain my full report

 

[Arian]

If you were a contestant on Forged in Fire
Doug would tell you “Your gun will Keel!”
Not bad groups for hunting rifles but you can definitely get better results once you find the perfect recipe!
Good luck and good shooting!

Additionally: you might consider reducing you strings to 3 shot groups..it’s a bit more affordable and will lend to better groupings. Load development can be costly with fickle barrels

good advice, in this case iam producing these for about 30 cents a shot. a hunting buddy told me 5 shot groups reduce human error tho, less impact to the overall data from a shooter induced flyer.

future loads will be more costly, but i lucked out by getting these components mostly donated. These are a learning project, not a serious load development as i intend to buy n150 powder wich wont work for these bullets (il switch to 24 cent lapua 8g fmj at that point for my training loads)

 

[Bucktote]

Hi Arian,
My advice to you, would be FIRST! Address what caused a slam fire to occur with your rifle!
Possible trigger pull weight set too low/ this is more important than finding what load is best for that rifle. Suppose that a slam fire happened at the rifle range & someone was hurt!

Next: load the bullets you expect to use when hunting & vary the powder charge to get the results you want. I understand that rifles like different powders better than others, so try what is available & vary the powder weights. Note that setting bullets close to the lands can increase internal pressures in the chamber. This may be more dangerous in older firearms,2nd hand owners have no idea what the rifle was subjected to by previous owners? Have fun but be careful, reloading must NOT BE taken lightly!. Best wishes, B/T

 

[Arian]

Hi Arian,
My advice to you, would be FIRST! Address what caused a slam fire to occur with your rifle!
Possible trigger pull weight set too low/ this is more important than finding what load is best for that rifle. Suppose that a slam fire happened at the rifle range & someone was hurt!

Next: load the bullets you expect to use when hunting & vary the powder charge to get the results you want. I understand that rifles like different powders better than others, so try what is available & vary the powder weights. Note that setting bullets close to the lands can increase internal pressures in the chamber. This may be more dangerous in older firearms,2nd hand owners have no idea what the rifle was subjected to by previous owners? Have fun but be careful, reloading must NOT BE taken lightly!. Best wishes, B/T

since the primer was untouched from the outside and the rifle was on safe it cant have been a rifle issue, especially with now over 300 rounds shot without malfunction and rigorous slamfire testibg on a rubber tire after adjusting the trigger to my liking. As the primer went off when i closed the bolt (while turning the bolt to lock it) something must have pushed the primer from the inside, or the primer wasnt set into the case properly? I had another primer detonate while setting it into the case, so far iam looking for the fault with my brass.

 

[Arian]

Hi Arian,
My advice to you, would be FIRST! Address what caused a slam fire to occur with your rifle!
Possible trigger pull weight set too low/ this is more important than finding what load is best for that rifle. Suppose that a slam fire happened at the rifle range & someone was hurt!

Next: load the bullets you expect to use when hunting & vary the powder charge to get the results you want. I understand that rifles like different powders better than others, so try what is available & vary the powder weights. Note that setting bullets close to the lands can increase internal pressures in the chamber. This may be more dangerous in older firearms,2nd hand owners have no idea what the rifle was subjected to by previous owners? Have fun but be careful, reloading must NOT BE taken lightly!. Best wishes, B/T

my current powder was given to me for free. The bullets iam making would work on animals up to beaver (legally speaking) but since components are basically free this time iam using it to get familiar with the process. I invested in an analog scale and double check all charges with a second digital scale. If either one shows a different weight, the charge gets put aside and the scales recalibrated.

The current COL is according to recipe, however these particular bullets hit the lands that way. Lapua FMJ dont, I assume vihtavuori accounted for this in the recipe.

As for pressure, do you mean my rifle could be damaged before the case shows signs? i hadnt though of that, just been looking at the casings ad primers to judge pressure. Once i buy a new powder i wont be buying this particular powder again because its not very well suited for 30-06, previous owner used it for a 223. he got caught transporting it to the range iopen in his trunk (no bag and not covered from plain sight) and that was aparantly the end of his permit. The local chief constable is very essy going in giving the permits out but draconian in taking them back.

 

[stonecreek]

a hunting buddy told me 5 shot groups reduce human error

Well, that's like people who think that twin engine planes are safer than single-engine planes. True, with a twin you have one engine left which may or may not keep you in the air. But you also have twice the chance of an engine failure! Likewise 5 shots gives you 40% greater chance of having as flyer than 3 shots. Five shots will also heat a light hunting barrel so that the last shot may show the results of heat stress, causing the barrel to point in a slightly different direction (or having slightly different harmonics).

As to maximum overall cartridge length, if the bullet doesn't engage the lands and the cartridge will fit and feed in the magazine, then being longer than "maximum" is not a problem. Seating close to the lands with most bullets generally yields better accuracy.

 

[kevinlg]

since the primer was untouched from the outside and the rifle was on safe it cant have been a rifle issue, especially with now over 300 rounds shot without malfunction and rigorous slamfire testibg on a rubber tire after adjusting the trigger to my liking. As the primer went off when i closed the bolt (while turning the bolt to lock it) something must have pushed the primer from the inside, or the primer wasnt set into the case properly? I had another primer detonate while setting it into the case, so far iam looking for the fault with my brass.

Something extremely dangerous is going on here!!
I'm suspecting VERY defective/dangerous primers.

I would proceed with EXTREME CAUTION..........AND a different lot, or brand, of primers.

Hope this helps........and be SAFE!!

 

[P04R]

I had another primer detonate while setting it into the case, so far iam looking for the fault with my brass.

Make sure you clean the primer pockets properly before seating a new primer.

 

[Arian]

i run a hard nylon brush on a drill through the cases and in the pockets. But i cant exlude some dirt made it in there during storage, i cleaned this brass a few months ago stored it in a ziplock bag. Il adjust my procedure to include another run with the brush before priming

 

[Bucktote]

i run a hard nylon brush on a drill through the cases and in the pockets. But i cant exlude some dirt made it in there during storage, i cleaned this brass a few months ago stored it in a ziplock bag. Il adjust my procedure to include another run with the brush before priming

Primer pocket looks good, may be the primers are defective as Kevinig
has indicated. Find out before going any further, this is a serious defect!
B/T

 

[Arian]

that would be difficult to find out i think. I can trash these and buy a new box, Will be the same brand and same production year tho. Only primers available and everyone uses them. Its possible but RWS primers are considered top of the line here, thats like saying fresh lapua brass is causing malfunctions, possible but unlikely.

I believe i likely did something wrong myself and sent a 30 caliber projectile 45 degrees into the horizon as a result, wich could have been into the berm instead had i minded where the barrel was pointed. fortunately there is 40km of wilderess behind the range. The test station at the range is seperated from regular shooting so i will need to adjust my procedure and mind where my barrel points as i chamber the rounds.

But since it only happened to 1 round and 1 primer during loading the most likely culprit is me. Either something snuck into the primer pocket or i inserted the primer wrong, with my setup it would be fysically possible to have my case slightly angled during insertion, perhaps this could cause one edge of the primer to protrude very slightly. for now this will be my assumption and il proceed by trying to do this on purpose(on an empty case ofcourse) and slamming the bolt onto them.

hard to believe a fresh 2024 box of RWS could be at fault when human error is also an option.

 

[Arian]

i think i found the problem, i slammed 20 primers put in as shoddy as possible one popped while priming when i tried to hit itvin with one hit of the mallet, little nick on the edge of the primer, on the inside the primers case had bent inward a bit as it went into the pocket at a angle. no malfunctions closing the rifle. intentially places a grain of sand on the primer, it scratched it but no pop.

based on the tests i imagine that if the primer can pop during priming by being hit wrong its not a stretch that it could happen in the rifle when the stars aline the wrong way.

I made a testbatch with the same 3.15g charge but 0.02 longer COL at 80mm this time all primers put in with extra care and triple checked. If it doesnt pan out il stick with the recipe COL and accept the grouping as is, should easily pop a hare at up to 100m and i dong think n130 is a very good 30-06 powder anyway, il look for more autistic levels of accurary once i get my hands on some n150 powder. N540 would also work across a very wide range of loads and is currently available but the shop owner warned me that it may be the hottest barrel killed comercially produced and he usually only has competition shooters ask for it.

 

[kevinlg]

i think i found the problem, i slammed 20 primers put in as shoddy as possible one popped while priming when i tried to hit itvin with one hit of the mallet, little nick on the edge of the primer, on the inside the primers case had bent inward a bit as it went into the pocket at a angle. no malfunctions closing the rifle. intentially places a grain of sand on the primer, it scratched it but no pop.

based on the tests i imagine that if the primer can pop during priming by being hit wrong its not a stretch that it could happen in the rifle when the stars aline the wrong way.

I made a testbatch with the same 3.15g charge but 0.02 longer COL at 80mm this time all primers put in with extra care and triple checked. If it doesnt pan out il stick with the recipe COL and accept the grouping as is, should easily pop a hare at up to 100m and i dong think n130 is a very good 30-06 powder anyway, il look for more autistic levels of accurary once i get my hands on some n150 powder. N540 would also work across a very wide range of loads and is currently available but the shop owner warned me that it may be the hottest barrel killed comercially produced and he usually only has competition shooters ask for it.

Is it possible that the brass has a primer pocket crimp.......that has yet to be removed?

I have absolutely NEVER popped a primer......while seating in a case. I also have NEVER had a cartridge fire, by only closing the bolt, WITHOUT the firing pin falling. I seriously doubt that any board member has either.

As I've said.......I feel this is a very dangerous situation. Please consult a QUALIFIED gunsmith.

 

[bloorooster]

Kinda brutal treatment for such a nice rifle. Especially considering that it started with trying to find a safe hunting load.
Seems like you had better accuracy from factory ammo. What’s the round count now? 400? 500?

 

[Arian]

Kinda brutal treatment for such a nice rifle. Especially considering that it started with trying to find a safe hunting load.
Seems like you had better accuracy from factory ammo. What’s the round count now? 400? 500?

in total, yea 400 or so, altho i let the rifle cool down between shots and clean it, iam at the range almost every morning and evening nowadays. Factory ammo FMJ was doing well but the price has risen to 3 euro per shot for those and 5 euro per shot for hunting ammo, I have a shooting exam coming up the coming month that will decide what game iam allowed to hunt with the rifle, have to nail 3 shots i under a minute or no cervid hunting for me. Definitely going to stick with n150 tho once this free tub of n130 runs out. Iam using the absolute lightest bullet available to me with that powder.

 

[Arian]

Is it possible that the brass has a primer pocket crimp.......that has yet to be removed?

I have absolutely NEVER popped a primer......while seating in a case. I also have NEVER had a cartridge fire, by only closing the bolt, WITHOUT the firing pin falling. I seriously doubt that any board member has either.

As I've said.......I feel this is a very dangerous situation. Please consult a QUALIFIED gunsmith.

i currently do not have acces to a qualified gunsmith, the waiting list is 4 months at the moment. So against admittedly good and wise advice i went ahead anyway and did further testing. No mishaps today, increasing COL actually Hurt accuracy, and waterbottle test shows that these bullets are waaaaaaay too violent for small game hunting exept small predators i wouldnt eat.

will consult a gunsmith before i take the rifle to the field tho. With known backdrop and apropriate muzzle discipline however i will continue testing.


Primer trouble aside, wich i feel was 90% certain my own error in seating them with my lee hammer kit a bit too carelessly.

iam settled on 3.15g wich is maximum in the recipe but doesnt give me any reason for concern, cases and primers all look normal, recoil is mild and accuracy very acceptable. increasing COL did diddly squat to improve it and seemed to actually worsen it a little.

So il laddertest between COL 78.8 and 80.8 wich is as far as iam willing to go at this point. 78.8 would be 1mm shorter than recipe, 80.8 1mm longer.

recoil is actualy mild enough even at max load that i can keep looking through my scope and see the impact, havent managed that with any heavier factory ammo. I wonder if the Vihtavuori load book lowballs the maximum significantly? dont worry i wont try to find out at this stage. Next year i can get acces to my clubs loading club and state of the art loading equipment bought with club money.

 

[Arian]

well no further incidents since i visially confirm now that primers are seated flush and pockets are free of debris. I did spot one that seemed a little angled in the pocket, so i tested it by putting it on a flat tile and tapping the case with a hammer and jep bang went the primer. Seems its an issue with the priming method on the hammer loading kit. Il be on the lookout for a better piece of kit to do the priming.

this load development is getting scrapped at this point, velocity is waaaay beyond my wished and accuracy and terminal ballistics are not what i want. Id like to try 110 grain GMX but i can only find load data for it in 308 unfortunately.