Yikes! L579 Deluxe - Drilled barrel and receiver

Discussion in 'Show us your Sako' started by Charles Witt, Jan 10, 2020.

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Keep or return?

  1. Keep

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. Return

    7 vote(s)
    87.5%
  1. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    Hi everyone. So... I just received this rifle today after purchasing it from an online website, who's name shall not be mentioned (but rhymes with fun joker). Sigh.

    They were limited pictures for my first time seller who is selling off some guns his father had left him. There was a scope mounted in the photos and upon zooming in on the photos, I was able to see that it was mounted in original Sako ring mounts. Rifle was in overall about 75% from what I could see.
    Upon receiving the rifle, I discovered that the rear dovetail has been drilled, as well as the barrel. This was conspicuously absent from the photos displayed and was not mentioned in the description.

    I realize that I should have requested more photos, but the question is what to do now.

    I paid $1115, including shipping. Should I see if he will take it back?

    Thanks so much for taking a look and for your opinions.

    Charlie IMG_20200109_215551.jpg IMG_20200109_215559.jpg IMG_20200109_215606.jpg IMG_20200109_221109.jpg IMG_20200109_221113.jpg IMG_20200109_222117.jpg IMG_20200109_222132.jpg IMG_20200109_222138.jpg IMG_20200109_222154.jpg IMG_20200109_222206.jpg IMG_20200109_223102.jpg IMG_20200109_224224.jpg IMG_20200109_224228.jpg IMG_20200109_224233.jpg

     

  2. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    The site is not responsible for the seller.
    First time seller is always a risk.
    Never buy anything emotionally, always intellectually
    You have to be able to live with the decisions you make, so it is best to prepare yourself accordingly.

    All that said, you should have a 3 day inspection to have the opportunity to return the gun. Notify the seller that you want to return it and get his approval before doing so. If he balks or acts suspicious try channels with Gunbroker.

    Don’t send it back until you are convinced you will be refunded. It is better to have a drilled Sako deluxe than nothing at all...
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  3. CVCOBRA1

    CVCOBRA1 Well-Known Member

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    I thought that looked familiar. You are correct, none of the four pics showed anything of the kind. I would contact the seller and question him to see if you could return it. The cheap scope and original Sako rings looked as if they were added to cover up the drilled tapered dovetails.
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  4. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    Charlie,

    This is a tough one.

    At 75% the rifle was probably more of a shooter rather than a collector anyway. As a Deluxe rifle condition is even more paramount regarding overall value.

    Respectfully, at 75% you may have overpaid in the first place. Obviously the drilling and tapping does not help, but it really doesn’t hurt it much more because of the existing condition. Do you feel it was purposely misrepresented?

    If it was a pristine rifle with the holes, then it would take a pretty solid hit in my opinion. As a shooter at 75% the holes are not good but the hit is not as bad.

    Maybe you could negotiate a return or ask the seller if he’d return a fair amount based on the lack of disclosure, purposeful or not. In other words, maybe the seller will feel obligated once he’s made aware of the situation. I’ve been there too, sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    Charles Witt likes this.
  5. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    I requested to return the rifle. I'll update on the final outcome.

    Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

    Charlie
     
  6. pow

    pow Well-Known Member

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    The auction site does have power over the seller. The problem is getting the auction sites attention.
    The seller used the words “great condition.”
    The problem with type written words is the definition of the writer vs the understanding of the reader.
    Now guns international has a standard three day inspection period.
    You have to choose on which playground is the safest.
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  7. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    I doubt that the seller had any idea that the holes were "extra". He is probably unfamiliar with Sakos and didn't know to call attention to something which he may not have realized might be of concern to a buyer.

    Regardless, since it is not in original condition and the photos failed to reveal this, you are within your rights to demand return of your money if you wish.

    But let's see what you've gotten for your approximate $1075 in purchase price: The rifle appears to be in much better than 75% condition -- in fact, I see nothing in the photos to indicate it is other than "great condition" (excluding the extra holes). The rifle is a Bofors Deluxe and has the desirable "Two Deer in Woods" floorplate. The wood shows some outstanding fiddleback, which is rare in early Deluxes. You have some original rings which typically sell between $100 and $150, and the scope might be worth $50. All in all, you didn't pay a bad price for the package.

    Whether you keep or return it should depend on what your interest in it is: Did you buy it as a "collector" in hopes of it being a pristine example of its model? (I doubt this since you described it as in 75% condition, which isn't close to being a collectible.) Or did you buy it as a very nice shooter? (Which it is.) If the former, then demand return of your money. If the latter, then I'd consider keeping it.
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  8. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    Thanks so much for the reply. I agree that there is a good chance that he had no idea that the holes were not original or that they potentially detracted from the value or collectability of rifle. I wrote him a very respectful message explaining that that drill holes were not original and that they likely detracted from the value and collectability of the rifle and that I wish it had been disclosed because I would not have bid on the rifle. I'm definitely giving him the benefit of the doubt. I have no reason to suspect otherwise.
    Regarding the 75% estimate, I have been told many times that I underestimate condition percentage, particularly on older rifles which are, I suppose, to some degree, expected to have some minor blemishes and handling marks. I am no expert in grading condition. I do not have any rifles in my collection which I consider too nice to shoot or hunt with, though I do I have a few rare ones in excellent condition but I probably should not play with.
    The "Deer in the Woods" floor plate, fiddleback wood, and the bonus rings are all reasons that I bid on this rifle. The Bofors Deluxe is a personal favorite of mine (as is the 243 caliber). The stock is beautifully formed and even thinner in the forend then my Bofors Deluxe L461. It is a beautiful piece. It was just unexpected and disturbing to see all those holes!
    I actually felt that the $1,075 purchase price was pretty darn fair in this market considering the configuration including the bofors barrel, beautiful Walnut, desirable floor plate, and good condition.

    I am and have been strongly considering keeping it. It's just such a shame seeing those dovetails and barrel drilled.
     
  9. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    You have yourself an interesting dilemma. When I commented and gave my opinion, mine was based on the 75% condition you’d placed on it. Which in my opinion at $1075 would have been somewhat high based on your percentage. I wasn’t in a position to say otherwise. I was on my phone rather than my desktop. It does appear now to be better than 75%, although I see a few minor flaws.

    Take a look at a recent posting I did on November 4th in the Medium Action section. It should say Bofors.243, or something to that effect. My understanding is the rifle sold for slightly less. This may help in deciding whether to keep or potentially returning.

    Stone is spot on in his reply - especially in his last paragraph about consideration of your overall expectation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
    Charles Witt likes this.
  10. Unclekax

    Unclekax Well-Known Member

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    I am with Stone and Sean on this one.
    Yes it is a shame about the holes however, nice floorplate, fine bit of lumber, and you sound like a shooter type of collector, like myself.
    Enjoy it for what it is.
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  11. deersako

    deersako Well-Known Member

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    It certainly is a shame, and similar things have happened here when buying guns online that can’t be inspected in person.
    I’m wondering about the two holes in the barrel. Does this rifle have a front sight ?
    Is is possible that those two holes in the barrel were from a removed rear sight, the Williams style ? That someone has butchered further with the grub screws.

    Maybe some money back from the seller and have a competent gunsmith tidy up the holes in the action and barrel with some well fitted grub screws, shoot and enjoy.
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  12. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    No front sight. The drill holes in the rear dovetail are in a location I have never seen before. One of the holes is towards the front of the rear dovetail and the other hole is directly through the recoil recess. This, combined with the location of the holes in the barrel, which are about 5"-6" forward of the receiver, had me thinking that perhaps some sort of Target scope had once in mounted. Maybe a Unertl?
     
  13. pow

    pow Well-Known Member

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    “Doubting the seller had no idea” is sophomoric in reasoning. The gun was not listed on Craig’s list.
    Bofors barrels that are drilled are not collectable. Receivers that drilled are not collectable.
    Bare bones value of this gun as follows:
    Barrel =scrap value
    Receiver drilled = $50
    Bolt = $350
    Stock = $200 needs recoil pad
    Floorplate = $200
    Scope mounts $50
     
    Charles Witt likes this.
  14. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    Just wanted to update on this.
    I suppose that I should leave feedback on the site (just stating the facts) for the consideration of others.
    After 2 days of crickets, I received the following reply this morning:

    "Good Morning Charles.
    I am sorry that the rifle is not what you expected. I am a hunter, not a gun person. Any changes or improvements my Dad made to the rifle I was unaware of. All the guns I own were my Dad's and he knew everything about them and cared well for them. The money you sent me went to catch up on Mortgage and into the oil tank to heat my home. It has been a tough year for me.
    Here is the Gunbroker ID of the other bidder that you may be able to sell to:
    ***(I deleted this to protect their anonymity.)***
    My apologies for not being able to be more helpful.
    Dave"
     
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  15. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    Come on man you’re better than this. This rhetoric is beneath you....

    We all are aware the rifle is not collectible.
    It’s still a complete rifle with I’d imagine tons of life left. Just because the barrel has been drilled and tapped does not mean it’s slated for the scrap heap.

    Please, how many barrels and receivers which weren’t intended to be drilled and tapped were to accommodate some type of add on feature. I can think of literally dozens of brands. Are they scrapped? Hell no. Thousands of pre 64 model 70’s for instance received extra holes. Trust me none were scrapped, and they still have value

    You seem like an intelligent and perhaps experienced person, why not use this tool in a way which educates others, rather than being condescending.

    A word of advice: when you type a response, take a moment and read it again. You may ask yourself - how will this come across once read by others?
     
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  16. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    The receiver itself is worth nothing. But salvage the trigger, bottom metal, bolt stop & ejector, magazine box, magazine follower, and action screws and you've got several hundred dollars of readily disposable parts to offer on any online site.

    Regardless of its salvage value, I agree with Sean that it is potentially an excellent shooter, and in my judgment, worth what was paid.

    I would also agree that no one should offer a gun for sale via internet who cannot afford to refund the selling price if the buyer is unsatisfied. I'm sure that Charles will give this seller an honest but negative feedback for his refusal (or as the seller infers, his inability) to refund the purchase price. An unknowledegable or financially incapable seller shouldn't be marketing guns via internet auctions.
     
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  17. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    I have bought 100’s of guns over the years and have learned a lot about myself and the type of people selling guns. To be brief, I will say this...

    You wanted the gun in the first place due to the known condition and caliber. It is disappointing to find out that it had been drilled, nothing can be done about that.

    The seller doesn’t want to return your money, you have no idea whether or not he is trying to stay warm. You have to decide if you want to ask Gunbroker for assistance or just keep the rifle.

    The negatives are extra holes, and the seller doesn’t want it back.

    The positives are, it is a good looking rifle with no other issues. It is an early Bofors gun with a rare floor plate and Sako rings.

    I don’t think the guy knew anything about the right or wrong of the holes. I also don’t think that poor people can’t be honest too, and send your money back, but he isn’t. Keep the gun, enjoy it, as it won’t perform any less than it would without the holes. Let him know his feedback will reflect how he treated you in this deal, then follow through and leave honest feedback without trying to crucify him.

    Worst case scenario, you keep it with a little disappointment and enjoy what it will do for you as it is. Write off the holes as tuition for the schooling you got on making gun deals and sleep good at night knowing you didn’t screw anyone in your dealings.
     
  18. kevinlg

    kevinlg Well-Known Member

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    On the bright side.........properly fitted/dressed plug screws can ALMOST erase unsightly screw holes.

    Just a thought........
     
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  19. Charles Witt

    Charles Witt Member

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    Just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone for taking the time to reply and share your experience, advice, and insights. This really is a great forum. Sako collectors are the best.

    I do want to add some additional information about this transaction, as well.

    Because the seller was a non-rated first time seller and required a certified check, I requested that he take the gun to his local gun shop to ship to me and I offered to pay 100% of the shipping costs associated. He said that he did not have a local gun shop and that he would package the gun up very well and send it to me directly. (I am an FFL, btw.) While I was uncomfortable with this, I decided to trust him (I am very trusting, lol) and asked him to please confirm how he would be packaging the rifle to ensure that it would not be damaged during the delivery. He said (in writing) that he would wrap the rifle in bubble wrap and put it in a soft case.
    When I unboxed the rifle, it was not in a soft case, but was very poorly wrapped in a minimal amount of bubble wrap with the muzzle protruding and only one layer of thin bubble wrap over much of the rifle. *Photos are attached.

    I definitely learned more than one lesson on this transaction. :)

    All of this being said, I knew I was assuming some risk with a non rated first time seller and limited photos, just didn't expect the drilling.
    I suspect I could still get $750 or more pretty easily, (with full disclosure of the condition, of course), and recoup most of my money, if I wanted to. Instead, I think I'll top her off with an old Bushnell Elite 4200 that I have on the shelf and see how she does at a 100 yds.

    If the seller is willing to take an F review to avoid having to resell the rifle, then I do believe money is an issue for him and I have no intention to crucify him, nor do I have the heart to try and force the issue. (This is why my wife no longer allows me to be a landlord. ) I will just state the facts for the record.

    I will add that I do feel like there's at least a chance that he researched the rifle and/or took it to a gun shop and learned that all the drill holes were an issue before deciding to post it on GunBroker with no disclosure (in the photos or the description).

    Happy hunting.

    Charlie


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