What should be called a "Mannlicher"?

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by stonecreek, Oct 3, 2019.

  1. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Sako's full wood guns are recorded as "Mannlicher" in their records. That's sort of like Hewlett-Packard records using the term "Xerox" for their copiers, or a manufacturer of facial tissues listing them as "Kleenex" in their production log. You get the drift: Utilizing a proprietary name which has become a generic name for a particular product or style.

    Now, Steyr Mannlicher made not only full wood guns, but also half-stock rifles as well. However, unless I am missing something, Mannlicher only made their full wood guns in carbine length barrels of 20 inches or less, while they made half-stock rifles with longer barrels. I don't think they ever made a full wood/full length barrel rifle, or did they?

    On the other hand, Sako "Mannlichers" came in both carbine and full length rifle barrels (20 inches and 23-24 inches). But Sako recorded both the carbines and the rifles as "Mannlicher".


    So, here is my question: Just like we don't call a paper towel a "Kleenex", should we call a long-barreled rifle with a full wood stock a "Mannlicher"?
     
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  2. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    I agree, there should be some sort of a distinction but I realize through Sakos own designation it’s tough to rename a historical reference. But for the sake of the discussion I will offer the following.
    Mannlicher rifle
    Full stock rifle
    Rifle full stock
    Full length Mannlicher rifle

    I’ve seen similar references in other forums and on for sale adds. Take care.
     
  3. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    I think the word "Mannlicher" has evolved over the years to describe a "style" of rifle having a full length stock more than it is related to the barrel length. If there is a distinction one wants to make regarding barrel length, Mannlicher rifle or Mannlicher carbine would be my choice. If that's what Sako called them, why change?
     
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  4. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I guess I didn’t realize Sako actually made the distinction in their own description. In Stone’s reference it seemed as if full and short were not referenced separately. It sounds like they actually were?
     
  5. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    That's correct, both were simply labeled "Mannlicher" (or abbreviated as "Mann" in some records).

    In early years Sako did not differentiate between standard, Deluxe, HB, or Mannlicher in their shipping records, although they did usually note the configuration in their inspection records. In later years (post-1972, I believe), Sako started segregating the various configurations in the shipping records so you could tell a shipment of Deluxes from one of standards, etc. At that time they also started segregating the 20" Mannlichers from the 24" Mannlichers in the shipping records. However, they did not refer to them as either "carbine" or "rifle", but simply by barrel length.

    I think that Paulson's suggestion that for sake of identification we call them "Mannlicher rifle" and "Mannlicher carbine" seems to be a good one. Of course, many of us simply refer to any of them as "full stock", which also works.
     
  6. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree, Paulson’s suggestion is very discernible. You and he, along with others are some of the foremost authorities regarding all things Sako. This by the way has helped educate me further. Its funny- when I first became interested in Sakos 30 plus years ago I had somewhat limited knowledge of several of the finer nuances (like record keeping etc.) regarding Sako until I joined the forum. Obviously I did my research but not to the degree of the resources available here. I knew what I liked and could judge excellent quality, and had collected other high quality firearms. Most often I’ve never been disappointed in any Sako I’ve ever purchased.
     
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  7. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

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    I usually use the term "Männlicher-style" carbine or rifle (frequently omitting the umlaut for convenience, as my browser requires me to retrieve the umlaut from a special character tab). That clarifies the distinction between an actual Steyr-Männlicher or Männlicher-Schönauer product and anything else with a full-length stock.
     
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  8. XTrooper

    XTrooper Well-Known Member

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    The short answer is no. We should not call a long-barreled rifle or carbine a "Mannlicher" simply because it has a full-length wood stock.

    As long ago as my boyhood when Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles and carbines were still available for sale (I owned an M-S 1952 carbine in 7x57), when someone spoke of a Mannlicher rifle or carbine, it was generally understood they were talking about their Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle or carbine, manufactured by Steyr-Daimler-Puch or its descendants. If they owned something like an FN Mauser Musketeer carbine, they would speak of its "Mannlicher stock" or "Mannlicher-style stock" as icebear mentions, both of which were almost universally understood to mean a full-length wood stock, irrespective of manufacturer. I have several old gun catalogs from the fifties and sixties that mention "Mannlicher-style" stocks in their descriptions.

    paulsonconstruction is correct.
     
  9. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    Wasn't Mannlicher actually a Duke or Prince or some titled nobleman that liked the full stock rifle? Schoenauer or Steyr or whoever was making those rifles at the time named them after him as an honor or more probably as an marketing ploy. I don't think Mannlicher was a rifle maker or company of any kind. Least that's a story I remember from back in the day. Any history buffs out there that can confirm? If Sako was using the term back in the 50's, then there was obviously no trademark or copyright issues. There are lots of terms or names whose true meaning gets lost or perverted over time. GI's coming back from WWII started using the term "clip" to describe any magazine for any gun because of their familiarity with the 8 round enbloc "clip" used in the M1 Garand. Now it seems everybody misnames detachable box magazines, but we still know what they mean. Mannlicher is one of those terms that any rifleman will understand what it describes, anywhere in the world. To further define it is futile, IMHO.
     
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  10. XTrooper

    XTrooper Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about the titled part, but Mannlicher-Schoenaurs, the rifles that at least at one time were the most recognized of all full-length stock longarms, were manufactured by Steyr-Daimler-Puch which became Steyr Mannlicher AG which very recently became Steyr Arms, the point being "Mannlicher" was a recognized manufacturer's name. Also, Sako, to the best of my knowledge, never used the word "Mannlicher" in any public way. In other words, they may have used the word, as you say, stonecreek, as a generic terminology for full-length wood stock in their records, but not in any marketing or official model name. If you do a Gunbroker lookup of Sako, you will find many listings with the word Mannlicher in them, but they are all unofficial monikers. On Sako's website, the word Mannlicher is non-existent. In all of their ads that I've viewed, dating from the fifties to the present day, the closest I've seen of the word Mannlicher in any of them is the abbreviation "Mann." to describe their Mannlicher-style stocked carbines. Further, you will never see a Sako rifle or carbine with the name Mannlicher stamped into the steel. I don't know if Steyr had the word Mannlicher trademarked or not, but, in any case, I don't believe any other firearms manufacturer used the term in an official, public way, i.e., in so-named brands or models. Though I concede I may be wrong on this point, I have yet to see an example to the contrary.
    By the way, the Mannlicher in Mannlicher-Schoenauer firearms is in reference to Ferdinand Mannlicher, the Austrian firearms designer who designed them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  11. deergoose

    deergoose Sako-addicted

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    good topic here, guys. For what its worth, I find myself saying "full stock" more often than "Mannlicher", and will state "carbine" or "rifle" along with it when talking about my Sakos. Incidently, and for whatever reason, I seem to own more "full stock rifles" than "full stock carbines".

    DeerGoose
     
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  12. Rocky

    Rocky Well-Known Member

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    So much for the Mannlicher determination, Hell, I still call it Sako, not Socko.
     
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  13. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges Well-Known Member

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    Agree with DeerGoose, really good topic. When I read Stone’s initial post my mind was tuned into “Sako specific” - and their own denotation regarding full stocked carbines and rifles.

    Ferdinand Mannlicher obviously was the original designer of the German service rifle from 1895, but it seems others used the Mannlicher term without repercussions. Perhaps the name was never protected.

    If you think about it there is a plethora of items or products have evolved in similar ways, that is, using a name to describe something similar to a past item. Original items like Randall and Loveless knives are produced by other makers, but words like “style” are inserted, so they are not misrepresented. Interesting topic thanks.
     
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  14. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

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    Call it that in a gun shop in Finland and they will tell you they don't sell Japanese watches. (Seiko)
     
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  15. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Lots of thoughtful comments here. Thanks to all for sharing! It is clear that WE all know what we're talking about, even if the nomenclature isn't precise.

    Here's an ad for the limited Gander Mountain heavy barrel full stock. Gander calls it a "Full Mannlicher style" stock. The length of the barrel on these was listed as 23 1/2" (likely actually 600 mm or 23 5/8"), so they were "rifle" length and not "carbine" length.

    I've been looking for a Sako box end label from the early days to see if what the label called the full stock rifles, but haven't been able to find an image yet. Maybe someone has one they can share with us.

    $_57.JPG
     
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  16. XTrooper

    XTrooper Well-Known Member

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    That’s a cool old ad!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  17. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Yeah, advertising like this is sometimes the only record we have of some obscure Sako variations. And there are a few variations which were advertised but never apparently produced!

    Just for reference, the $172 advertised price in circa 1960 when this ad was produced equals $1,495 today. The B&L scope for $124 is equal to $1,075! Add in the mount and installation ($40 = $346) and you would have had a total of $2,916 in the package! That sounds exceedingly high, but if one of these were to show up on Gunbroker in pristine condition it would likely go for twice that today.
     
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  18. XTrooper

    XTrooper Well-Known Member

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    Well, my recently purchased Bavarian Carbine, Steiner GS3 scope, and Sako 30mm ring mounts, all discounted, set me back $2824 before taxes (which I fortunately didn’t have to pay) so it doesn’t sound too terribly far off to me.

    I mounted the scope myself.


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  19. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    I did a little research & found that my "story" from back in the day had a slight resemblance to the truth. Seems Ferdinand joined with Steyr in 1866 and came up with quite a few innovations that were patented. However, there is no reference I can find that attributes the full stock rifle style as being his design or invention or the exclusive property of Steyr-Mannlicher. He was awarded the addition to his name of "von Ritter" by the Austrian monarchy which is loosely translated as "Knight" for his many contributions to his industry, particularly the Austrian M1895 service rifle. He is known to have preferred the "full stock" sporting rifle for his personal use & because of his notoriety that style of rifle became associated with him & eventually rifles of that style were called Mannlichers as Steyr-Mannlicher was a big producer of them. His main association with Schoenauer was the design of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer rotary magazine. That's my new story & I'm stickin' to it, at least until I'm proven completely wrong.
     
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  20. XTrooper

    XTrooper Well-Known Member

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    Works for me!
    You know, if the M-S rotary magazine was the only thing Herr Mannlicher ever designed, he deserves to be revered. It was a marvel. Very interesting information, too! Thanks for the contribution!


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