Weight of a fullstock Sako?...and why?

[waterwolf]

Does anybody have an idea about what is the average weight of a fullstock Sako AIII (late 70's early 80's)? I know they will vary a bit based on the wood density but I think at least a few ounces over 8 lb. is likely the average. Do you agree?...so add rings and a scope and you are likely well over 10 pounds...no?

Whatever it is, its too much. My Husqvarna fullstock 30-06 weighs under 8 lb. with steel rings and scope! How could Sako produce a supposedly light and handy, short-barreled "Stutzen" rifle and have it weight so much? Is it all in the barrel weight?

A few years back I had a beautiful Sako .308 fullstock with a long heavy barrel and I sold it. I was told it was a relatively rare rifle, but I couldn't find any use for it...maybe it could have been used as a "sit down on a stump and wait" type of deer rifle but it sure was useless as an actual stalking/carrying rifle. It was like carrying a heavy steel wrecking bar.

Its not that Sako didn't know how to make a light rifle. My Sako Riihimaki L 46 Mannlicher in .222 is a real featherweight...but later Sakos all seem a bit heavy.

 

[Hootsmon]

...maybe it could have been used as a "sit down on a stump and wait" type of deer rifle but it sure was useless as an actual stalking/carrying rifle.

You hit the nail on the head right there. In Europe, very little walking is done. From my car, I walk maybe 200 metres to a high seat, and wait. My Sako stutzen is very heavy, but it's not an issue. In fact, it's probably an advantage.
Most high seats I use have a roof, so a short rifle is very handy for maneuvering around the uprights.

 

[stonecreek]

Earlier (prior to about 1971) Sako Mannlichers had much lighter barrel contours and more svelte stocks. Of course, the long action calibers were not available during that period, only later. My personal view is that Mannlichers are best limited to the shorter actions and lighter barrels, but apparently the management at Garcia and Stoeger thought otherwise for the American market and influenced Sako to produce a beefier Mannlicher.

 

[woodman]

Earlier (prior to about 1971) Sako Mannlichers had much lighter barrel contours and more svelte stocks. Of course, the long action calibers were not available during that period, only later. My personal view is that Mannlichers are best limited to the shorter actions and lighter barrels, but apparently the management at Garcia and Stoeger thought otherwise for the American market and influenced Sako to produce a beefier Mannlicher.

I shall call it........."the Beeflicher"

 

[Anonymous]

Agree with Stonecreek. Further, I wouldn't even hunt with a "sveltelicher". There are so many better models for stalking to my taste. To me, a Mannlicher is more form than function. Don't get me wrong, they can perform, but these days its eye candy.

S-A

 

[waterwolf]

Re: "To me, a Mannlicher is more form than function."

I think a properly made Stutzen rifle is actually an ideal, a near equal balance of form and function...that is, an equity of history and utility...and without history what is sport hunting? If hunting is reduced to only function then we may as well strafe deer from helicopter gunships (which they more or less did, in New Zealand a few years back). There is also a place for slightly more "functional" stainless steel and plastic stocks (I hunted for a decade on the very wet coast of British Columbia..and if you don't hunt in the pouring rain, then you can't hunt there)...but in general, for sport hunting, I'll take a walnut fullstock and blued steel.

And, If my Husqvarna fullstock 30-06 can weigh under 8 lb. with a walnut stock, a Swarovski 4X and steel rings, then so can a Sako.

 

[misako50]

Sorry Robin- They just don't weigh under 8 pounds.(Long actioned sakos)-Misako

 

[bloorooster]

Thus the reason to have a Forester in a Mannlicher style...Tho' I don't own one (yet), to me it would be the perfect mountain rifle. I enjoy Robin's post regarding the balance between form and function...put some heritage back into Sport Hunting!! Thanks Robinpeck and Welcome to the Club!~Bloo

 

[stonecreek]

Yep, you'll need to find an older L579 .308 if you want a Sako Mannlicher which weighs what a Mannlicher should weigh -- without sacrificing an all-steel set of bottom metal, unlike your Husky with its aluminum trigger guard and floorplate.

I've been fretting over which of my Sakos to let out of the safe when the Texas deer season arrives in November. This thread has just made up my mind -- it'll be the .308 Mannlicher. It's also handy when coping with the constrictions of a small hunting blind.

 

[bloorooster]

My thoughts exactly Stone! I will add this, my last Whitetail hunt ended with a .308 Deluxe L579 in hand and a whopper 9 point on the ground. It was the first time I hunted with that caliber, I must say I was very impressed with the knock down power. I feel the Bofors L579 Mannlicher with the short barrel would be perfect in the tight brushy woods of my area, for still hunting, stalking and drive hunting as well, when quick standing shots are needed ....excellent choice!~Bloo

 

[paulsonconstruction]

robinpeck:
Just weighed my L579 Mann (circa 1963) with 20" barrel & a 2-7X Leupold in Leupold rings. With no sling & no ammo it tipped the scales @ 7lb 4 oz. in 243 Win. A 308 with the same barrel contour would probably be a tad lighter depending on wood density. It's has the best handling characteristics & balance of any of my rifles, which I find more important than actual weight. AIIIs would obviously be a little heavier by the extra steel in the action & bottom metal, but easily less than a pound. What rings & scope you use can make as much as a half pound difference in total weight, but I can't imagine how one could weigh 10 lbs.

 

[waterwolf]

Yep, you'll need to find an older L579 .308 if you want a Sako Mannlicher which weighs what a Mannlicher should weigh -- without sacrificing an all-steel set of bottom metal, unlike your Husky with its aluminum trigger guard and floorplate.

One note on the Husqvarna "aluminum trigger guard and floorplate". I had an opportunity many years ago to file into a Husqvarna "aluminum trigger guard and floorplate". and I don't know what specific aluminum alloy they used for their bottom metal, but it was very hard...steel hard...definitely not ordinary aluminum at all...certainly nothing like what is implied by the phrase "without sacrificing an all-steel set of bottom metal, unlike your Husky with its aluminum trigger guard and floorplate".

 

[stonecreek]

Whoa! Didn't mean to offend. I only meant to point out that steel, which is widely preferred to aluminum for the trigger guard/floorplate, naturally weighs more. Rifle builders will often substitute aluminum for steel in certain places to save weight (and sometimes cost), but most people prefer it when you can achieve light weight without resorting to aluminum. One of the reasons is that it is difficult to match the finish of the gun's steel and aluminum, and aluminum finish is typically more subject to wear, scratches, and abrasion.

While I've never owned one, the Husqvarna has a reputation of being a very good action. But even its proponents will often say something like "too bad about its bulky alloy bottom metal".

If you don't have one, you would certainly enjoy reading a copy of Frank de Haas' definitive book "Bolt Action Rifles". The de Haas book is a marvelous reference in which he details the features, design, and function of most of the world's bolt action rifles (at least those available up to the time of the book's publication.) Mr. de Haas lists the Husqvarna action as weighing 40 ounces and having a magazine of 3.385" (enough for the .30-06 family but not the full-length magnums). Sako actions bracket the HVA in length with the L579 having a magazine of about 2.8" and the L61R a magazine of 3.65" (accomodates "full length" magnums like .375 H&H, the Weatherby's, and the Remington Ultramags). The L579 with its steel bottom metal is listed as weighing the same 40 ounces as the HVA, while the L61R with its longer magazine weighs in at 44 oz.

Perhaps more significantly, de Haas has this to say in his article on the Husqvarna: "I don't consider the HVA ideal for the shorter .308 family of cartridges. For the lightest and shortest sporting rifle in these calibers the Sako L-579 Forester action is a better choice." His words, not mine. However, if the question were which action makes the best light sporter in .30-06, then, for the same weight "expenditure" as a Sako .308, you could get a Husqvarna .30-06. So if it's a .30-06, .270, etc. that you want in a light Mannlicher, and you don't mind the aluminum bottom metal, the Husky seems a very good choice.

 

[waterwolf]

I've read De Haas' book in its various versions many times, and although he can be confused about some rifles and actions, he's probably right about the weight and size of Husq. vs. Sako .308 length actions. However, I've always done most of my thinking about rifles using the 30-06 as the mean. I grew up in rural Alberta and I've shot a lot of Alberta Whitetail (and some Mule) bucks with my standard 30-06 load, a 180 grain Nosler Partition at an honest 2700 fps. Not the flattest shooting load, but a good big gob of lead when it gets there, and I think that is important.A slightly hefty load but I was usually hunting moose at the same time... And I got so used to the trajectory that I could do some decent long range work with it, and the distances were relatively long by some standards (...and not too far at all by others...200-300 yards being an average shot...). The Whitetails in Alberta are fairly big...the does running around 200 lb. and the bucks much larger, some nearly the size of a small elk. So I got used to thinking of the 30-06 as the measure of all things rifle. Right now though, I'm looking to buy a .308 or .243 Sako fullstock rifle for the somewhat different business of hunting Eastern whitetails.

I've owned a lot of Husqvarnas of all kinds...hunted with and bought and sold dozens of them over the years...and eventually came to prefer the alloy bottom metal versions. But like you say, the down side is refinishing the alloy when the anodizing wears.

 

[stonecreek]

Couldn't agree with you more about the .30-06 and how universal it is. My son won't hunt anything with anything other than his Sako .30-06. He's killed everything from coyotes to elk and Jackals to Kudus with it. For larger game he uses a 180 Partition at about 2780 fps from the 24.4" barrel; and for smaller stuff like whitetails he uses a 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3,000 fps. Although lots of people believe the old saw that you can get .30-06 ballistics from a .308, I've loaded for many rifles of both calibers and you have to push a .308 hard to get a 150 up to 2800 fps, whereas it is pretty easy to wring 3,000 from the same bullet with an '06. The difference is probably even greater when you step up to a 180, but I wouldn't know as I don't consider the .308 an appropriate platform for a 180 grain bullet and have never tried loading any.

It's not that I don't have appreciation and use for the .308, it's just that you have to expect lower velocities with the .308 -- which is still perfectly fine for whitetails and similar size game -- or larger game at more limited ranges. I'd say that a .30/150 grain bullet at 2750 fps or so is nearly the perfect combination for eastern deer. For that matter, a .243/100 grain bullet at 3,000 fps is also an effective deer-killer.

I hope you can find a 1960's era Sako Mannlicher for your purposes. It would fill the bill nicely.

 

[16b410]

I'm in the camp (perhaps alone in it) that doesn't care what a fullstock 'should' weigh. The little Ruger 77 RSI barely hits 7 pounds soaking wet. The Winchester 70 Mannlicher goes 8 pounds 13 ounces. I hunt with both and love them equally.

 

[waterwolf]

http://www.sakocollectors.com/forum...llstock-carbine-6-5x55-project-underway.9725/

This project has more to do with bulkiness than actual weight but the weight will still be less...and "less is more" (Mies).

 

[bigbear]

Just a comment. Here in B.C. there's hunting and there's hunting. Horseback and backpack hunting for sheep and goats I use a scarred synthetic stocked Remington Alaska Wilderness Rifle. I would never take any of my wood stocked Sako's on such a hunt. Horses can hurt rifles ,scrambling around on jagged rocks is not much good for them either, not to mention spending days in cold , drenching rain or snow and nights in cold damp wall tents. Black bear hunting in the spring , strolling down old logging roads on a nice sunny days, my Sako 308 Mannlicher is just dandy. Cruising logging cutblocks in November( looking for deer to stalk) on my old guy quad with my Finnlight 300mag on the rack, clip in pocket is also quite dandy. Different tools for different tasks, and a nice excuse to own more than one rifle!

 

[waterwolf]

Although originally from rural Alberta, I lived and hunted in coastal B.C. for 15 years. I remember pouring rain, regular rain and light rain as the 3 main B.C. hunting weather conditions. Especially November....on the coast it could pour everyday of that month. However, I did shoot my best Blacktail in the pouring rain.

 

[Rogan Kinnear]

I would absolutely love a heavy mannlicher for varmenting. In Australia, one of the many ways we hunt is to drive around a property or farm and use a spotlight that is usually in the roof of our vehicle that you can use to scan the fields. Essentially we shoot from the seat within the car and rarely leave the vehicle so you rest our rifle on a custom rest, the door frame or a side mirror. Although a heavy profile barrel is desirable that extra weight with a short barrel would be perfect. I'd just need to protect that wonderful wood.