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Too often misrepresented as "pre-Garcia"

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

stonecreek

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It seems that sellers are either totally ignorant of what "pre-Garcia" means or intentionally misrepresent their guns. Here is one currently on Auction Arms. See if you agree with me that the lack of pistol grip cap (not conclusive), detachable sling studs (could be replacements), and three-point checking (totally inconsistent with pre-Garcia) are evidence that add up to NOT pre-Garcia. More subjectively, the stock finish seems more red-orange than the darker stain common to pre-Garcia rifles.
https://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9599957&oh=216543

I don't intend to be the policeman, but it does bother me when people either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent a Sako.
 
Stonecreek -

I never seem to be able to keep it straight, but I was thinking the 3 prong panels front and rear appeared at the end of the FI period, and then continued into Garcia. At some point they then went to the 2 prong front and rear...?

As you say the lack of gripcap and solid swivels are sort of inconclusive. Also, don't see the s/n listed. Guess if I was considering giving up around 1000 of my well-loved clams, I would be asking for the s/n and a good close-up photo of the bottom of the barrel in front of the forend and receiver markings.

I have a feeling the prongs on the checkering panels is about as muddy as some other Sako details... It may be the best we can hope for is the sequence used...? Dick
 
Hey Stone & Dick
One of my Mannlicher's, a Forester .243 which is an FI import has three-prong checkering on grip and forearm and has no black grip cap. All of my pre-model 72 Garcia's have three-prong checkering, no grip cap, and fixed swivels. Two-prong on grip and forearm came about with the Model 72, as evident on my .300 Win Mag.
Regards, Will
 
Re Pre-Garcia vs Garcia, I have one each - a late FI L579 in 308 and an early Garcia in 270 as fols:

Ser 100,6XX FI on barrel, med brown, swivels, no grip cap, 3 prong checkering

Ser 67,7XX Gar on barrel, reddish, QD studs, grip cap, 2 prong checkering

B. Smith
 
Guys,

In doing a bit more research I think Dick is right that there were a few late pre-Garcias with three prong fore end checkering. Put all of these pieces of evidence together and all you have is still a question. Although the gun has the appearance of a Garcia, it very well could be a pre. Even if you knew the SN, you would not have conclusive information.

I would say that checking for an import mark would be conclusive, but I've seen too many post-1968 Sakos without one. Apparently, lots of those German Air Base club guns made it back to the U.S., which somewhat muddies the water.

One of the experiences that makes me "gunshy" about the representation of "pre-Garcia" guns is finding a gun I once owned up for sale on a gun auction. The owner (apparently second one after I sold) stated something like "it must be a pre-Garca because the word Garcia is no where on it". Well, I guess not. It was marked "Stoeger"! He also said that he had owned it for four years, but I looked up my records and had sold it less than two years previously. Ironically, when it left my possession it had a perfect Sako factory pad. Someone had replaced it with an aftermarket pad in the meantime. Why?
 
What about the magazine plate release mechanism? I'm not well versed on when the change was made or if this may be a factor in this case?
S-A
 
The magazine release changed from the "s" style to the round plunger sometime during the FI import period. So, all you can say is that all "s" releases are pre-Garcia, and plunger releases are found both pre and post. Of course the very early L579 used a serrated half-moon inside the trigger guard, which change to the "s", then to the plunger -- with all changes occuring before 1972.

I have noticed that the "s" release is usually coupled with a crossbolt nut with an open center, whereas the plunger release is usually coupled with a solid crossbolt nut. The open-centered nut is found (so far as I can tell) on flat-sided crossbolts, and the solid center nut is found on round crossbolts.
 
SC,
Got it! Thank you. When I start working my way back from the pre-72 L61Rs I'll have to remember this. That's interesting about the crossbolts. I do have an L61R with the flat crossbolt and the solid center nut. It's the only one in the family that isn't round. Maybe it's another factory anomaly or just plain not the original. It's on the five digit .375 H&H.
S-A
 
"Maybe it's another factory anomaly or just plain not the original."

Hey, it was only a few months ago that I thought there was no such thing as a three-lug Garcia, or an L61R with a shouded bolt, or a P-72 made later than a P-75. With Sakos, factory anomolies abound. I wouldn't chalk it up to being a replacement.

It would be fully in keeping with Sako's practices that after the switch to round bolt/solid nuts, someone picked up a left-over flat-sided bolt out of the parts bin and assembled it in the stock with a new solid nut.

I remember having a heated discussion with Mims Reed on another forum when Mims was sure there was something profound about whether a grip cap used a slotted screw or a Phillips screw. Mims though he had it all figured out and had some formula and all for it -- turns out that the only significance to the slotted vs. Phillips screw heads was that it depended on whatever Sako's supplier happened to have available that month.
[SakoCollectors.com] Too often misrepresented as "pre-Garcia"
 
Stonecreek,

Your comment that it's hard to be sure about the significance of certain characteristics of our Sakos minds me of a story I heard about a prominent Browning collector that was going to write a book about the FN era Browning rifles with both mauser and sako actions. Seems he gave up because he couldn't make any statement about the Browning rifles without someone correcting or challenging him. That's why when I started collecting my Deluxe Sporters, I went for only those with Bofors marked barrels because I thought if my collection was all marked Bofors, it would be harder for someone to convince me that my collection was post garcia....somewhat stupid on my part isn't it?
 
I have a L61r 30-06 serial number 748xx, it has three point checkering, the red/orange stain, fixed swivels and a three lug bolt, there are no import marks. Is this a pre-Garcia?
 
sxs,
Not necessarily, but I would suspect it would be more properly called pre-72 based on the serial number. The stock is the only contrary thing you describe The lack of an import stamp could mean that it was purchased in Europe ( a lot were by our military guys stationed there) and brought back home to the US.
I have the same rifle as you, Deluxe, 54,xxx with everything the same except how you describe your stock. Yours is nearing the change to the Model 72, which bore the stock you describe. In the few years prior to Garcia implementing design and numbering changes, Sako was using up all their stocked parts in the factory to put rifles together. You will get to know there are some strange combinations that came from that era.
S-A
 
Douglastwo -

I wouldn't call is stupid in any way. All you have to do is take a look at your certainly excellent collection of Ds to be reassured.

Sxs -

Understand that Garcia was a US importer and that the term 'pre-Garcia' would only apply to guns originally imported to the US. If your rifle has no import markings, you can assume it wasn't a US import as S-A suggested. Be aware the markings can be under the stockline, either on the barrel or action.

Given the checkering panels, coloration, and especially the s/n described, I think it likely your rifle was made in 72-3. Garcia import marks started showing up late in 1970. It seems correct to me to think of a rifle like yours as Garcia 'era' or 'period', whether it is so marked or not. Since it has the solid swivels and 3-lug bolt, I guess you could also think of it as a type of transition gun - having some characteristics of eras on either side of it.

Dick
 
Dick,
Well said. I have an L61R that is a known purchase at the Rhine-Main Rod and Gun Club in Germany in 1970. Surprisingly, it has the Garcia Sporting Arms stamp. I'm starting to think that the Rhine -Main guns that got ordered for sale to our troops in that location (and others, like Nuremburg) maybe had to be stamped because a military installation is considered American soil? The rest must have come from local gun shops that had no stamps.
What do you think of that theory? Any guys buy any Sakos while stationed in Germany on the base? I know some also went to the Americal Division in New Caledonia around the mid 60's before they shipped to Nam as well.
I think we need to hire the Mythbusters:bigsmile3:.
S-A
 
Dunno S-A -

I think a Garcia marked rifle bought off of a European military base would be an exception to the rule. Unless you bought it personally, or have the paperwork, I would be a little suspicious of the tale. I know embassies are on American soil, but not so sure about the bases. If the legend is true, it would be the first FI or Garcia marked that I've heard of. Still, stranger things have happened. Dick
 
I don't think there were any Garcia-marked Sakos until 1972. Perhaps someone could correct me if this is not the case. I agree with Dick that it wouldn't be logical for a gun sold in Europe to have the Garcia mark.
 
Dick,
This guy and I followed the same path military-wise. He was a couple years behind me and all the places he mentioned were very familiar to me. He is looking for the receipt. He claims that he was a member and present when the Sako shipment came in. Apparently, that rod and gun club did a lot of business with Sako. This particular rifle was the only of it's model and he said he snatched it as soon as it came in the door.
As for the rifle itself, notwithstanding the particulars, it's the cleanest, most blemish-free one I have received thus far. Bar none. It has been taken care of very well. The stock was as new and clean as the Deluxe one I got from the factory in 1970, which you've seen. All I did was give it a good cleaning and that was it. Usually there is a scuff or two to attend to. So, I can't complain about the rifle one bit. I thought I was getting the non-etched one, but we know how it goes, right? I suspect he didn't even know where to look. Maybe the rifle was the only one available of it's kind to ship with the order and someone at the factory figured since it was going to a US base, just sent it. In 1970, I doubt that the Garcia "machine" was up to speed in accounting for their rifles?
Anyway, he remembers seeing the hang tag around, but didn't have a handle on where it was and promised to look. Also, for the receipt. It was $450 at that time and he had to pay it out over a couple months or so. Said the other Sakos coming in were running $95 - $120 bucks.
And the beat goes on.............
S-A
 
Stonecreek,
I do have another of the same model, 41 digits higher that has no stamp. And another 75 digits lower that has the stamp and we concluded that the hang tag was '71. Maybe with this run of rifles it came with it's own Sako peculiarities.
I don't really care, it's great. Just kind of funny.
S-A
 
I think what we're seeing here is the now infamous "serial number skipping" apparently practiced by the Sako factory. For the life of me, I can't figure how they used their numbers. I have a Garcia-marked three-lug action in the 40,000's! Normal SN distribution would put that one well before there was such an entitiy as the Garcia Sporting Arms Corporation!

About the time I'm ready to get into a verbal fist-fight on this subject, I remember that nothing is ever consistent with Sakos and much of what you find about them is unique and irrational. About the only consistent thing is their quality!
 

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