Sako Rifles Afield (as intended)

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by Old Hippie, May 26, 2021.

  1. Bucktote

    Bucktote Well-Known Member

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    Hope this post is in the right catagory?
    while becoming a student of Ballistics and while learning to sight in my Sako rifles correctly, I am reading " Guide to Rifle Ballistics" by Wayne Van Zwoll.
    In the text he states: For every 1 degree of temperature change a gain or loss of 3 feet/second velocity is realized. Here in GA temp. swings can go from 20F to 80F during ?the hunting season. With a swing like that, is there a way to calculate bullet drop? I don't want to open a can of worms by asking this question, so please excuse me if this is the wrong place to ask. Example: 40/F to 80/F = 40 deg. X 3 fps =120 fps + colder or warmer air density, should this be of concern at ranges inder 300 yds? Maybe I am getting too concerned about these things?

     

  2. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Bucktote. I for one, believe that your question would fit most categories. I personally believe that there is no certain answer to your concern because it would depend on just how far your want to go for precision shot placement. It is almost impossible to get the same POI under varying conditions. The reason is because there are an infinite number of uncontrollable factors involved. Such as, temperature, altitude, angle of incline or decline, wind variables between the muzzle and target, air density and many more that I cannot think of. You mention temperature which definitely effects powder burn rate which effects bullet FPS and drop rate as an example. My conclusion when finding the sweet load for any rifle is to assume that you would get the best results possible by zeroing in under the closest comparable conditions under which you will be using your rifle. Practice and experience are the best way to learn. SCC and its great source of information will help you for sure. You will receive many great pointers in the right direction. Sakojim.
     
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  3. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    Bucktote..the variance in 300 yards , at a loss of 120 FPS is minimal at that distance when one intends to put a lethal shot to the vital zone of game animals. Hunting rifle accuracy is of course critical, but the need of precise sub minute calculations in the field aren’t really needed as they are in target and long range competitions. To me personally it will always be about the rifle I choose to hunt with and my ability to put shots where I want them. Factors in the field or in timber vary with each and every step. Up hill, down hill shots are more of a concern to me than the rise in temperatures thru out the day

    The mathematics of ballistic truth are a necessary guide to performance, depending on the levels needed to excel. 1 Minute of angle is 1 inch at 100 yards and it’s 3 inches at 300. The vital zone for medium and large game is 8-12 inches accordingly, which provides a few extra minutes of angle to play with.

    Your rifle, as all Sako’s I’ve ever touched, will shoot better for you every time you shoot it. As you bond with and find its finer handling capabilities, and it finds yours. Confidence will build quickly and before you know it..the math won’t really matter.

    I hope this makes sense , if not, post a photo of your calculations notepad in the field! :)

    Hippie
     
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  4. Bucktote

    Bucktote Well-Known Member

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    Dear Mr. Hippie,
    After reading much about Ballistics, temp. effects, wind ,etc. I have come to the conclusion that what I have been doing all these years can't be so bad. My goal is to make a swift humane kill on any game animal or varmint I encounter. My hunting mentor convinced me to take a high sholder shot on deer species . I have a skelaton diagram of a deer type critter. If you look at a high sholder shot & if you can hit within 3" or so, the spinal collumn suffers shock and renders the deer DOA. I have zeroed 3" high @ 100 yds. and I think I am over thinking the task at hand. Considering where I hunt and under the conditions that prevail in my area. I guess I will keep doing what I have been doing. At 3" high @ 100 yds. when zeroing in warm temps I guess it allows some for temp. changes on powder, range & other variables . Again my rational is to make ethical clean kills while persuing our hunting heritage. B/T
     

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    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  5. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    You got the right idea B/T … quick kills are what we want. High shoulder shots on whitetail work well to put the animal straight down where they stand. It’s a nerve core area as well as where the big arteries branch off. Good shot choice.

    I assume you are still speaking of your .243win.
    You may want to drop that 3” high @ 100 down just a tad, to 2-2 1/2 “ tops. 3” high at 100 means you’ll be around 4” high between 125 and 175 . Your bullet is still on the rise at this point. A deer standing at 160 yards may be grazed or overshot, using the high shoulder aim point. Those ballistics are the ones that get you. I set mine dead on @100 and use a LRD reticle. I spent considerable range time playing between the available distances from 100 to 450 until I was able to make hits consistently at will.
    We have a steel deer target on the range , front shoulder, neck and head at 450 yards that I could “kill” at will with that rig … a Sako L579 Mannlicher Carbine.

    Just keep doin’ what yer doin’ !

    Fine looking hog you got there by the way!

    Hippie
     
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  6. Bucktote

    Bucktote Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply Mr. Hippie,
    My son & I had a hunting club in SC & if we put our scopes on 8X we could shoot 400 yds targets by using the thick part of the vertical post reticle as the aiming post. We shot steel 3/8" plate targets with our Sako AV & Finbear 30/06 and my Interarms .243. Much fun & great times with my boys ! Reloaded the 30/o6 @ 125 Gr. Nosler B.T. @ 3,000 fps & .243 95 Gr. Nosler B.T. @ 3,000 fps. Now the hunting club land is under development!!i Will take your advice & lower scope to 2-1/2" or set my newfangled scope turret with the smart turret. You cannot imagine how uncomfortable it is to zero @ near 100 deg. temps even with a beach umbrella overhead. Thanks again & God bless our group.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  7. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Bucktote. Depending on the distance you zero your rifle and other factors, the bullet may pass the line of sight twice before reaching the POI. You will have reached the peak of your desire to cause ethical clean kills when you can place the POI in the neck or head for the least pain and instant death to the animal. A good neck shot will also bleed out the animal with minimal loss of blood-shot meat. You will also show the image of a true sportsman when you are proud to pass up a shot that will not accomplish this. The distance that these things can be accomplished may vary depending on conditions and the ability of the hunter, ammunition and rifle. Meticulous research, good equipment and hand loading will make the task much easier and quicker. If you search the topics of this forum you will find a great series by Rick about getting the best from your rifle. Check it out, it may save you a lot of time and effort. Sakojim.
     
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  8. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    Agreed!
    I was just thinking about that. Before I started hunting with Sako’s (I know it sounds like a plug) , I would not consider a head shot or neck shot. That shot has a bunch of minutes of angle to play with in the vertical playground but not much play in windage. High shoulder was my favorite shot choice then. After one summer of shooting my first Sako, a L579 in .243 , I gained huge confidence in my ability to put shots were I wanted them. I credit it to not only the trigger, but the design of the rifle and how it functions with me. It fits the shooter ergonomically and places the bore line into the shooters natural line of sight. These rifles are not only made to be attractive, they are made to shoot, made to hunt.

    My favorite thing about neck and head shots is the field dress..cleanest my hands ever were.

    Like a friend of mine says
    Good Hunting/Good Shooting!

    Hippie
     
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  9. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    And I know what you mean about the heat..summer here is a free sauna for about 20 hrs a day. Sako Vintage Gunstock finishes don’t do well with sweat.
     
  10. Bucktote

    Bucktote Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen,
    Thanks for your replies. When I was younger ( in my 30s ) I would take neck shots within 200 yds. Now that I am much older I opt for a somewhat larger target. Every trophy I have is a one shot kill. Only I know how many deer & other animals I have passed up because of the age, time of day, and distance.
    My rifle is a tool for making a clean kill, but the ethics always remains the shooters responsibility. I feel that the folks on this site are of that same mentality and I look forward to learning more as time allows. You won't believe the life lessons I have learned due to hunting. Greed management stands out as one of them, but I will not take up time in this forum to tell the story. All the best to our group. B/T
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  11. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Bucktote. Please accept my humble apology. My previous post was not meant to imply that you should be more target selective if you have age related vision problems. I have been very fortunate to have had 20/15 vision most of my life and am now beginning to form cataracts at a slow rate at a very old age. I have reached the point where I have quit hunting and shooting for this and other reasons temporarily. (I hope.) With the newer medical technology that is available, I hope to be able to have my vision back to normal soon. Again, my apologies and I hope that you will be able to enjoy hunting and shooting as long as you may wish. Sakojim.
     
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  12. kevinlg

    kevinlg Well-Known Member

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    Interesting discussion about trajectory.

    The JBM Ballistics website has a wealth of information.......or at least it use to.

    As for me, I've set my 100 yard zeros to maximize the point-blank range for a given cartridge/rifle combination.

    Generally.....I set my "big game" rifles to hit 1.75" high at 100 yards, and varmint rifles at 1.5" high. A small difference.....yes.....but usually results in a maximum height, above line-of-sight, of 3" and about 2" respectively.

    These settings usually result in maximum point-blank range of approximately 280 yards.....give or take. Anything past that.....and it's holdover time, although I'll admit to always reminding myself to hold, at least..........on "hair". :)

    Note that I base the settings on a 6" kill zone for big game......and a 4"(edit:eek:oops!) circle for varmints.

    Just my thoughts......
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
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  13. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Hello kevinig. To each his own when it comes to the ballistics and trajectories of different calibers and bullet weight depending on desired POI. I have always had very good results from using my old Nosler number 6 reloading guide manual. In the rear of this manual are sections that give all of the basic information by ballistic co-efficiency and trajectory for most of their bullets. I have found this to be very helpful. There may be a later version of these tables available and I am sure that there are many other bullet brand sources that would be very helpful. Sakojim.
     
  14. Bucktote

    Bucktote Well-Known Member

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    Thanks gentlemen,
    I in no way took Sakojim's comment in a negative light. At 83 ( AUG.) I still prepare food plots, keep up our home. hunt and climb trees (when my wife isn't around ) so I think I am still active for my age. Guess I shouldn't climb any more? but I have found that it is not about the meat, but about the hunt, Many times if I just see game it is a good hunt. I am cleaning my Sakos today & giving them time for the solvents to work. Confidence is the result of good equipment and practice. With my rifles I have the best available at modest prices and I pray that future generations can have the same kind of freedom that I have enjoyed. All the best to you all. B/T
     

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  15. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    B/T. More power to you. I am just a little bit ahead of you but also very active. 90 in November. Living in colder elevation, I splurged for a new tractor with cab last year. Still enjoying all of the activity of our little hobby farm.
    Hopefully, we will have many more years of enjoyment and praying for better times in our world. My best to you. Sakojim.
     
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  16. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    A day out with my favorite ‘46 , riding in my hunting buggy, playing distressed Bambi tunes at full volume. Sweating and waiting…and sweating!

    A Great day to be alive!

    Thanks to B/T and Sakojim for bringing this thread along as they have. It’s wonderful and uplifting to hear the insight of age and an active lifestyle. You guys rock it! I’m 59, and I hope I can stand as you are now when I catch up to you.

    Great stuff! ACC39012-8C39-40BA-8931-82F116617988.jpeg
     
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  17. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    MPB! Yes, Kevin, thanks for bringing that to the discussion..it had been looming up ahead during the last few comments.
    I’m set up similar with some of my rifles, depending on what reticle the scope has. With duplex reticles I zero my .308’ (150g is the norm) 2” high, and my .222’s (50g) are equipped with fine cross hairs 1.5” high @ 100. My .243 (75g) has a Lr duplex with dots, so I zero it dead on @100 and adjust the power ring for longer shots. Example..with the power turned down to 5 , the first dot is smack dab at 450. I can pull off head shots on that steel deer target.
    Actually the .243 doesn’t count as far as Max point blank range goes , but it applies to the rest.
    300 yards is my real life limit when hunting, even tho most of my shots are taken at far , far shorter distances. The longest shot I’ve made on a deer is 420 yards , but it was probably a 30-35 degree down hill shot. I shot a .270 at the time, holding on hair, top of the back. It fell in right were it was supposed to. I got lucky. The true average shot distance is probably less than 100 yards over almost 40 years of hunting.
    I was afraid the use of max point blank range had become a thing of the past!

    Hippie
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  18. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    That Leupold LR Duplex is a great reticle. I have it on several Sakos. I like to zero the crosshair on 200, which puts most high-velocity rounds very close to the reference dots at 300, 400, and the top of the post at 500. Very flat-shooting combinations (70 grain .243 Ballistic Tip at 3600 fps, for example) extend those distances, but if you're capable of thinking in meters instead of yards, then those loads are pretty close to "on" at those distances extended by about 10 percent.

    Of course, knowing the actual distance under hunting conditions is still a challenge. I recall under-estimating a feral hog and hitting it in the top of the front leg instead of the shoulder -- fortunately it hobbled over to where a hunting companion was working on a deer blind and he dispatched it.

    Also, wind is much more of a challenge than elevation in long-range shooting because gravity is a known constant while wind is highly variable and much less predictable. Scope reticles which presume to compensate for wind pretty much just junk up the sight picture in my opinion. That's why I prefer the Leupold LR Duplex (no longer offered, I think) to the Leupold Boone & Crockett or any of the other paramilitary haystacks superimposed on the otherwise clear field of view.
     
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  19. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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  20. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    Cool
    I just quoted myself

    Not even tech savvy Hippie
     

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