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Sako L461 O'Brien or H&R Ultra Wildcat .25 - Ugalde

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

Mystery solved. The pin on the bolt release mechanism actually turned out to be a modified rear screw that when you rotated it about a half turn allowed the bolt release mechanism to work so the bolt could be removed from the action.

The pin actually must have been an afterthought because it lacks the quality workmanship that went into the other modifications. I'm gonna make another one and replace the boogered front screw as well.

rick
 
Wow........

The bolt release housing has been highly modified, with three "changes" to the top of the housing, along with the ejector being shortened, and an extra hole in the inner flange. Should be interesting to take apart.
 
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I gotta think the bolt release mod has something to do with allowing the bolt to travel farther rearward to allow it to pick up the cartridge from the lengthened mag & also to allow ejection of a loaded round. Can you compare to an unmodified one? When you say "pinned to prevent it from working", do you mean you cant take the bolt out without removing the whole release mechanism?
 
Making a replacement for the cruddy screw is going to be a challenge. It will have to be done on the vertical mill but trying to get a hold of a tiny screw head so I can machine the detent on the end of it is going to be a problem. I'm thinking of hogging it out of a small piece of rectangular stock so I can make a small lever of sorts. Once I make the piece and thread the short leg of the "L" (I will also have to machine a short flat out on the very end of the short leg as that is the detent that allows the bolt release retainer to work), I can install it in the bolt release and if I get the threads right about a 1/4 flip of the long leg toward the rear of the action should allow the bolt release retainer to line up so the bolt will slide out. If I do it this way I have to be careful that the long leg of the part does not conflict with the little bolt release tab that is still used as part of the release mechanism. If this solution gets too much stuff moving there something is sure to interfere with something else.

I gotta put a little more gray matter behind designing the part in my mind before I go to the shop and chips start flying. A simpler solution would be just a straight screw replacement made out of round stock and cut off like the one that is in there but being a purist I would have to slot the end with a little slitting saw. The key to making this look good is to do it in the mill but as always you gotta really get a hold of the work or the part will go flying. Tiny stuff like this doesn't lend itself to behaving well when milled given the stresses an endmill or cutter can generate.

Sorry for the machinist jargon here but once a machinist always a sheenist I say. Got cutting oil in the blood I guess. So two solutions, a more elegant lever and an el cheapo screw. I'll probably come up with a few more before I'm done but I really want whatever I make to look good and of course function properly.

If you like I'll take some photos as I make the part and post them as part of this thread. Some might find it interesting. Also, if I make the part out of stainless it would sort of match the chromed bolt if I can put a good polish on it.

rick
 
Good Morning Hawkeye

At first I thought it was a pin that froze the entire bolt release mechanism. Then I figured out that it was a modified screw. I already posted what I found. It starts out with Mystery solved so kindly take a look at what I wrote and I think your question will be answered about removing the bolt.

As for the travel of the bolt relative to cartridge ejection and pick up you are correct. The mechanism had to be modified to lengthen the travel of the bolt toward the rear of the action. Remember all of the modifications that were done to lengthen the magazine were made to the rear of the magazine port in the action and the trigger guard.

This is all really neat stuff. It is also an ingenious solution to allow the L461 to handle the longer .25 Ugalde.

rick
 
Rick:
Thanks for the feedback. I'll be curious to know what the max OAL is after these mods were made. The 25 Ugalde is a useful & cool wildcat & with these mods allowing for a larger bullet selection makes your a special unit.
 
Hi Hawkeye

I'm going to remove the little screw later today and try to get a picture of it to post for you guys to see. Its pretty tiny hence my diatribe on making a replacement.

When I have the rifle in hand I'll measure the length of the modified magazine box. That length less about 10 - 20 thousands should be about the max length of a round. As I recall the magazine box looked to me to be lengthened about .2 (eyeball measurement) so that should be close. Since a .223 is about 2.26 long that would mean that the Ugalde could handle something roughly 2.46 if my dimensions are close.

But let me get the real dope by measuring and I'll post the numbers.

rick
 
Hi Guys

I really appreciate all of the interest that is being expressed. I have some additional pics that I think you will find interesting.

This is a pic of the extractor and bolt stop assembly. Notice the right boogered top screw. That is the screw that is turned manually to allow the bolt removal mechanism to work. Also not the small detent (probably done by a spring loaded center punch) just to the left of the slotted head screw. Wait till you see what that is for!

PB300238.JPG

The next two pics are of the screw and you can see the little rectangle that has been machined into the end of the screw. When the screw is rotated about 1/4 turn this thing allows the bolt stop to be moved out away from the lug so the bolt can be extracted.

The second photo is another pic of the screw so you can see it better. To the right of the screw is a little piece of spring steel that has a detent on the end and a half moon hole on the opposite end. The half moon went around and under the head of the screw and the detent fitted into the punched hole in the bode of the bolt removal/extractor part. What this did was to put a little upward pressure on the screw to keep it from rotating after firing. If it did move the bolt could just slide out of the rear of the action when it was being cycled to extract a spent case. This is one reason that I wanted to make a small lever that would be under screw tension while at rest. To remove the bolt the little lever I had in mind to make (picture a small rectangular tab on top of the screw) would have to be moved rearward to align the tab and allow the bolt to be removed.

PB300241.JPG
PB300243.JPG
 
I just went out to the shop to measure the magazine. The opening is 2.43" so it can probably digest a cartridge 2.41" OAL. I was close with my estimate. Not too bad for an old man with crummy eyesight.
 
Interesting thread, and thanks for all of the detailed photos, Rick!

The L461 was designed to be just long enough to accept the SAAMI-speced .222 Magnum cartridge, which Remington made just a bit too short, for whatever reason (trying to fit it into military autos, I think). When lengthened like this one the L461 makes a much better action for the longer wildcats based on the .223 and .222 Magnum cartridges. Such a longer action would even accept the German 5.6x50, which itself is a .222 Magnum stretched just enough to provide the minimum velocity/energy required by law in Germany for certain species.
 
Thanks a lot for the compliment and the interest. I was really hoping that this would be interesting to some of the folks on the board and I think I tried to provide an interesting narrative and pictures to boot. Only time will tell if others find it interesting and the information useful as well.

Yep wouldn't it be cool if SAKO made a L461L. Just .2" longer in the magazine and load/ejector port. Wow, what a love affair I could have with a little doozie like that. That said, after disassembling this little guy I wouldn't recommend modifying other L461's like this one. Here is why, for most people modifications as complicated as these are would be way over their heads. Take it from me, I have a full up machine shop here and even with the dimensions I could take off of this rifle I would be hesitant to machine another one. I'm not saying it would be impossible but you have to ask yourself the question, would it be worth it?

I wanted to get back to Kevin because of a statement that he made in another post to this same thread. As I recall Kevin wanted the serial number and I think he made a statement about production logs for ORC. So my question is as follows: If I post the serial number, given that this probably started out as an H&R UW rifle, can anyone tell me what the original barrel chambering was? I think that would really be an interesting tidbit of information to add to the story. If not, is there a source that I could go to, to find out that bit of information?

I also would like to know if anyone knows of another rifle like this one. Seems to me that if Wes actually made this one he wouldn't just make one. Any thoughts?

rick
 
Just another thought on the bolt stop/ejector issue. I've looked at this thing pretty hard and the location of the stop has not been hanged at all. If fact I don't see any reason why a stock unit wouldn't work properly as the one pictured does not appear to be modified. That said, does anyone know where I can pick one up?

Also I discovered a new issue. There is a minor crack in the stock on the bolt side just where the trigger guard recess is. I have a feeling that removing some of the wood to accommodate the longer magazine may weakened that area. I'm going to take it to a friend of mine locally who specialized in stock repair to see if he can make an invisible repair.
 
Good News Fellows!

I just heard from Rod Ryder a few minutes ago and we will coordinate a phone con for sometime next week. I'm going to send him the photos that I took and some of the narrative from our discussion. I'll also give him a link to this thread so he can read our entire discussion if he likes.

I'm hoping that he can shed a little more light on the rifle and Wes's modifications. After he and I chat I'll post the highlights of our discussion so all can share in his wisdom. Hopefully, he will be up to posting some comments as well.

rick
 
Hi Fellows<

Ron Ryder got back to me this morning with some astounding information. Please Have a read.

Rick, there is no doubt that Ugalde chambered that gun. With his then partner, they had a couple hundred reamers or more. They had basically a complete machine shop. The bedding you describe is his method to the T.
I have several Sakos as well. Both the original 222 detachable mag action, and the later 223 length. The pics wont expand on my putor, without joining that group. But if memory serves, the bolt stops changed over the years. If you can send some pics here, that will give me a better view, it would help. I just looked at my guns, 3 varying styles, one with two screws, the early guns used a dovetail and one screw. I would imagine all could be switched with minor mods to work.

One reason I can think of to modify as yours, would be to allow LOADED round ejection. And like you mention, without studying a bit, I cant imagine why an 87 bullet would need extensive mods to feed from the existing set up. The loaded round idea yes, simple feeding from the mag, and from my minds eye, I cant see the need for extensive mods using the later action.
Ugalde was close to brilliant. He rebuilt that one RCBS straight line pistol loader, into an automatic hydraulic powered case feed machine, to produce necked up TCU brass from mil spec cases. I helped on that project, he had the notion folks would buy brass pre necked to 6 6.5 and 7. We made quite a bit of it, but the project failed in the long run. It was simply too easy for the shooters to neck it themselves I guess.

Point being, the mods you desribe, he could have done in his sleep.
There are a multitude of gun smiths in this area. Its one reason I moved here. Ugalde knew most of them. The guy that gun may have come from, was named Dean Alley, of Gardnerville NV. who made a bore sighting device. Only reason I think it might have been his, was that he stroked out there not long before you originally contacted me. But all of us are no longer kids. Ugalde built and modified guns for any body he liked, and some he didnt like. Few of them are under the age of 60 at present. In other words, Alley might not have been the source of your gun.

It could have come from the Jeunke brothers, Saturn Gun Works, in Reno, it could have come from any number of sources. I see guns at shows all the time, I suspect Wes worked on or barreld.

He was a humble man, but with a lot of stubborn pride as well. He had made TCU versions with 22, 6, 25, 6, 6.5 and 7, and even 30, which even he admitted didnt really have a shoulder. On the other hand, a lot of other guys were doing wild cats near identical, and he admitted that his was far from an original idea. But the ISHMA guys were winning a lot of matches using the 7 TCU due to the fact Ugalde and Talbot were in this area, and they even held the 2nd national matches here in 1976.

The Contender was a popular gun, and which ever version of the story is true, they contacted Ugalde about them chambering the TCU version. I am sure he is looking down from Heaven right now, and chuckling to himself about all of this, thanks for the interest, I miss him everyday, Ron Ryder.
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So I think this is confirmation that this is a Wes Ugalde modification to a H&R Ultra Wildcat.

BTW, Ron is such a great guy. I know that he is under the weather but he still took the time to answer my inquiries, read the post and as always apply his extensive familiarity with Wes' products that he remains the unquestioned expert on Ugalde and his chamberings.

rick
 
Thanks for all the good info Rick!!! My feelings exactly on the loaded round ejection, as my L461 suffers the same handicap with 223 Rem rounds just a tiny bit over SAAMI.
 
Hi Guys,
Well my friend Jerry has the little guy for repairs to the crack in the stock. Jerry is an expert at crack repair so I am leaving it in his capable hands to do a virtually invisible repair on it. When I took the rifle over to him to assess the damage and get his opinion on a repair strategy we discovered that the darn crack was almost three inches long. It was virtually invisible running through the checkering pattern downstream from the rear of the guard. I'll post some pics when I get it back in a few weeks. In the mean time I am keeping my fingers crossed that this works out OK.
 
Hi All,

I thought I would post an update on the crack repair job. I'll post some pics tomorrow so you see the results. I took the little guy over to Full Metal in Melbourne and let Jerry have a go at making the repair. He has many years experience repairing stock cracks of all sorts so I had confidence that his work would not disappoint.

When Jerry looked at the stock he discovered not one but two cracks one on either side of the rear lower guard screw. The most massive of the two extended almost four inches and followed the first row of checkering back toward the rear of the stock. Jerry completed the repairs without altering the stock and his work is virtually undetectable. What a pro. I'll ask him to tell me what kind of glue he used and pass that info along. As he described it the stuff was as thin as gasoline and just wicked up into the cracks . Only a small amount was needed and since the stuff cured overnight he had ample time to clamp the stock so the cracks would seal. His repair method will also keep the cracks from running any further into the stock.

So now all I'm waiting for are the RCBS dies and I'll run up some rounds and take the little guy to the range for a shake down. I'll post pics of the repaired areas tomorrow.

Here is Rick Smiling!
 
As promised, here are the pics of the crack repair the Jerry did for me. I think the work is really great given that the wood on one side of it was actually raised about 1/64" and the crack in that area was just as wide.

I still don't know how this thing got there. But the way it was heading the stock could have split in half with the crack heading through the pistol grip. As it turned out this was a great save that preserved the integrity of the piece. But you be the judge.

Here is a pic of the repair in that area. Please not that no wood was removed and all of the original finish was left intact as part of the repair. If you look just above and below the rear screw you can just about make it out.

P1080307.JPG

The darn thing extended all the way through the checkering pattern and emerged just on the other side of it. It is about an inch below the roll-over in the pic.

P1080310.JPG

The finish in all areas where this thing was is as slick as beets. As I indicated, none of the original finish was disturbed by the repair. Happy ending to what could have become a real disaster.
Where it emerged from the checkering is barely visible in the photo.
 
Thanks for the question.

No there was no additional reinforcement work done. According to Jerry, the stuff he used is thin enough that it just wicks into the crack where ever it goes. Once the thing is clamped and sets overnight the bond is permanent. Very little bonding agent is used so it does not weep out of the crack onto the surface of the wood. I saw this first hand. Jerry was able to monitor the amount that he use so very little came out of the crack on the surface.

Finally I needed the work to be as transparent as possible so as not to modify the stock in any way. I didn't want any unnecessary disturbance that would screw up the authenticity of the piece. Jerry was aware of all of this and his fix was what he would do to anything rare like this.

rick
 
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