Sako L46 .218 Bee Improved Arrived! But What Improved Version Is It?

[ricksengines]

Hi Tony, Many thanks for you input. As I said in the beginning of this post, I'm not an L46 expert. I just really like the action and the L461 as well. Hopefully one of our resident experts on bolt configurations will jump into the discussion so we'll all learn something.

Yep, I thought about the barrel changeup and the light bulb went on. I must be getting old or something. I can't believe that I even went there. I got this little rifle because of the 218 Bee Variant. I found a little info on Chet Paulson and I am hoping one of our contributors will add some value there. It would be really cool to find out that Chet was as well known as Bill Morrison or Parker. I'm still having discussions with the owner trying to get more info on the little guy. The rifle belonged to his dad so like all of us old folk remembering can be a challenge.

Why not post a few pics of your Hornet for all of us to see and appreciate. There are so few of these rifles out there that anytime a person like yourself posts a pic all of us benefit just from seeing it.

Be safe and be sure to keep Christ in Christmas.

rick

 

[susanna]

rick. thanks .
im far from an expert on the L46 thats for sure, just get curious about how they progest in life .
my L 46 hornet was a basket case. had a full rebuild to get it going again, took a long time with a slow old gunsmith who in the end made a half resonable job of it. it works !
may have put some photos up in the past of that one, will have to look back, cant really remember
can do more thats for sure.
have 2 L46 hornets both in the same state of disrepair when found. the last just a few months back, it has had a beating. will need a bolt release & barrel before it shoots again.
merry christmas & best wishes to all .
tony

 

[ricksengines]

I managed to glom onto some once fired 218 Bee brass at the gun show about a week ago. Just a soon as I can get out to the shop to anneal a few cases and load them up with some powder, cream of wheat and Kleenex wadding to make some fire formed cases for measurement I should be able to post some pics and data the will tell us what it is. My initial gut is that it is a Mashburn variant rather than an Ackley but I have to do the cream of wheat nasty before I can take measurements to tell for sure.

rick

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Why the COW & Kleenex? Just use Trail Boss about 80% full or a 7 grain charge of Blue Dot. Should give enough pressure to give a good fireformed case. The Mashburn or the Ackley can be formed with your full house load once you determine what that is.

 

[stonecreek]

I fireform brass for my .22 K-Hornet by shooting regular Hornet loads. Accuracy is essentially the same. I would think that the Improved Bee with its rim for headspacing would be the perfect candidate for regular Bee fireforming loads.

To me it is much more enjoyable to shoot real loads getting an idea of the rifle's accuracy or even plinking tin cans (or better, knocking over used bowling pins you can get from the local bowling alley) than to mess with "blank" loads that crud up the barrel and may or may not fully form the brass.

 

[ricksengines]

Hi Stone

Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, factory 218's are very expensive these days and I picked up the 75 once fired cases for $21. That was a real deal. I plan on annealing about 5 of them to take the measurements after fire forming. Also, I have done fire forming in the past and if done correctly the process should yield perfectly formed cases. I'll post pics of the stuff as I move through the process. Not much powder wasted to fire form just a few cases and if that works ok I can still load up about 20 cases to bee speck and go for it. Neat part is that I can fire form here at the shop, then load and take it to the range for some accuracy testing.

Many Thanks for the advice. Believe me if I could get some factory 218's at a reasonable price I would probably go your way without hesitation but the cheapest I have seen them is $90 a box. Too rich for my blood.

rick

 

[ricksengines]

I wanted to take a few minutes to update this post. I managed to get my mitts on a box of factory Winchester 218 Bee cartridges (expensive to say the least). I finally had an opportunity to take the little Improved Bee to the range yesterday to see what the chambering was. I decided to use the factory rounds rather than fire form once fired brass. Don't know why but that is what I decided to do rather than screw around with powder, cream of wheat and cotton balls.

To say the least the little rifle turned out to be one of the sweetest shooting rifles. No recoil and dead nuts accurate even thought I was fire forming the cases.

Turns out that the chambering looks to be an Ackley Improved variant rather than a Mashburn. Funny how that worked out because given the timing of the changeover (as best I can recon from the person that sold it to me) I would have thought that the Mashburn would have been selected over the Ackley version.

Fire forming turned out to be a really good way to go. Not one case split or separated and as I said, accuracy was excellent.

I'll post some pics of the Ackley cases next to the unfired factory rounds for comparison in a couple of days. I'm still trying to locate some specs on the case dimensions to verify my findings. So far I have found pics of a Mashburn Bee case but nada on the Ackley. Hopefully Parker has some info in one of his handbooks or possibly in the big book of cartridge wildcats that I have sitting around here somewhere collecting dust.

rick

 

[ricksengines]

I forgot to add that during the testing I noticed that the safety wasn't working at all. It was stuck on fire and wouldn't rotate into the safe position. I'll be taking a look at the bolt to see what the story is on that score and report back. In the meantime if anyone can offer some probable causes I would appreciate the input.

Also, I didn't load any rounds from the clip. All cartridges were inserted into the chamber manually. The bolt closed without effort but for some unknown reason none ejected after firing. I had to kind of pop them out with my finger. The extractor looks to be in good shape so I have to look at the extractor mechanism while trouble shooting the safety problem. I know they aren't related but since I'll probably have to take the bolt apart anyway I just thought I would mention it.

rick

 

[topgear]

In the meantime if anyone can offer some probable causes I would appreciate the input.

Take look at this thread and download the .pdf guides that I wrote up sometime ago. The second .pdf is related specifically to the safety and how it functions.
http://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/riihimaki-l46-bolt-disassembly-a-step-by-step-guide.8012/
If you read the whole thread you should come away with an understanding of how the safety works. Many just need a good disassembly and cleaning and maybe a light honing or polishing. But only hone or polish if you know what you are doing. Otherwise take it to a gunsmith.

 

[ricksengines]

Thanks TG. I was aware of your contribution on this subject and planned to use it if I decided to dissect the bolt.

Thanks Again

rick

 

[gunner620]

Rick, you may not have this. May be a help in some way. Jim

 

[ricksengines]

Thanks Jim. Every little bit helps.

Just wait till I have a chance to post pics of the fire formed cases. They are really neat. Also, my take on this is that the rifle wasn't fired for at least 40 - 50 years. If I am correct with my assumption that was a real waste as it is a beautiful redo worthy of being taken out once in a while for a little plinking or pig hunting.

rick

 

[ricksengines]

Hi Folks

I had a few minutes to break away from my chores so I took some pics of the fire formed cases next to a couple of factory rounds for comparison. Here they are so please take a look and be sure to share your thoughts. Please keep in mind that I have not had time to take any measurements. But I promise to get to that in a short.



Given what I am seeing, I believe that the chamber is cut to the Ackley Improved Bee variant. From the pics that I did find of the 218 Mashburn Bee, the Mashburn variety has a different shoulder configuration with a different angle and a shorter neck.

Also, the neck on my fire formed rounds is significantly larger in diameter than what I would have expected and as a result the brass was thinned out a bit. What is important is that the body of the case is blown out almost to a straight wall and the base of the shoulder has been moved forward at least .1 perhaps more judging from the ring where the original shoulder started on the factory rounds.

As far as I know, this wildcat design was typical of P.O. in his quest to squeeze more velocity out of the many variants that he created. If I am right, and this is an Ackley Improved version he truly created a 218 Bee variant that was head and shoulders above the original factory designed cartridge.

Your thoughts on my observations is always appreciated.

rick

 

[cmjr]

I know that in Ackley's books he never mentions or talks about a 218 Ackley Bee, only the Mashburn version. I have a 17 Ackley Bee and a 20 Ackley Bee and both are 30* shoulders at the std neck/shoulder location. My Mashburn's shoulder is moved up considerably, side's blown out and a 40* shoulder. I've seen Ackley, Ackley Improved, and 40* Improved used on several variants that P.O Ackley never attempted and these seem to be labels that get attached to wildcats with the shoulder angle steepened. The pictures seem to show a 218 Bee that has a 40* shoulder at the std shoulder neck junction and I'm curious as to how they feed from a magazine. I've not had much luck with any of the 40* variants as to feeding from a mag but the ones that do feed are on single stack mags and are controlled round feed. I think your on the right track looking for an original barrel but it's nice to enjoy a nice rifle now. Good luck on your hunt.

 

[ricksengines]

Many thanks for your contribution. From all accounts that I have been able to find, the fire formed cases fit the description of the 218 Ackley Bee. I have several versions of Parker's books and will look at them next week. I also have all of the wildcat books and others that may very well have a more detailed description of Parker's variant. All of this said you could be right about his not being the originator of the chambering but there certainly have been dies made for it by the big three die makers but I do want to make sure that I am on solid ground before getting a set. It would also be hard to believe that he didn't put his signature on the Bee. Parker created more wildcat cartridges than can be imagined and it would seem very unlikely that he didn't develop a similar variant for the Bee regardless of Mashburn and the others.

I also posted a note stating that I am not considering changing it back to an original 218 configuration. I say this because I am sort of a purist when it comes leaving things alone. If I did change it I believe that I would be doing a real disservice to smith that rebuilt the rifle into what it is today as well as to the owner of the rifle back then that had it done. The little rifle as it exists is a sweet shooting thing and hopefully after I am gone and it is passed on to another person they will feel the same way that I do about leaving well enough alone.

Thanks Again

rick

 

[ricksengines]

Twenty-Two Caliber Varmint Rifles
By Charles S. Landis

I've been doing some additional research on the Ackley Improved 218 Bee. Kindly refer to the book that I found. In it there is a rather detailed description of the Parker 218 Improved Bee Variant along with many other wildcat cartridges that Parker developed, tested and produced in his shop. There is no doubt that he came up with the improvement.

rick

 

[ricksengines]

Well folks, seems that I have to eat some crow on this last point. Ackley might have developed an improved version of the 218 Bee but then so did several other reputable gunsmiths. Apparently the improvements that they made were basically similar although they were unique to each smiths design for an improved Bee. At least that is what the research is indicating.

Now for the good news, the fellow that I got this rifle from has been busily going through boxes of reloading stuff and along the way he found a set of RCBS dies marked 218 Bee Imp. and a bunch of cases. He sent me some pics and no doubt they go with the little rifle. As per our agreement I purchased to dies, brass and a set of RCBS 25-20 dies and brass so I should be styling once they get here.

Interestingly enough, since RCBS made the dies for the rifle I can't help but wonder if they still have the reamers that they used to cut the dies in the first place. Next week I'm going to give then a call and talk to the folks down in the custom die shop to see if to see if they do.

Here are pics of the dies and a sample of the rounds that will be coming in shortly. The dies are a bit grungy looking but they should clean up ok. Rounds look good and I am hoping that some load data will come along with them. It should be interesting to see if the loaded fire formed rounds perform better than the factory 218 Bee rounds that I fire formed at the range a over a week ago. I'll keep you posted. Enjoy!

 

[cmjr]

Lucky score, if you have the dies that's 90% of the journey, the rest is Wildcat Reloading 101. I'm curious as to how it feeds from that straight stack magazine. I had a Winchester 43 that the previous owner had reamed out to a Mashburn Bee. It has a straight stack magazine which I felt would give it a chance to feed and it wouldn't feed worth a darn. Your version has a lot longer neck than the Mashburn Bee, hopefully you can get it to chamber smoothly.

 

[ricksengines]

Hi Cm, This isn't my first rodeo with a wildcat. In fact I have been catin for well over 40 years. One thing I don't try to do is to burn up the barrel by pushin the pills to see how fast I can get them to go. I do work up loads fairly cautiously especially the 17's and others so as not to blow primers, the bolt or me up. My primary objective is accuracy and I really like dotting the 'I' so I put a lot of focus there and sometimes it just gets frustrating as heck when I just can't get one to shoot as good as I think it should be capable of doin.

As for the magazine feed. Most of the time I don't bother. Magazine feeding sometimes distorts the bullet and really screws up the accuracy. I generally feed manually one at a time on the bench so I can extract the spent round and inspect it. This was especially true for the fire formed cases that I just produced with this little guy. I can't wait to get my mitts on the rounds comin along with the dies next week. I really want to see how they do as compared to the factory jobberdoos I just shot. Hopefully there will be some load data so they don't turn out to be mystery meat. Also, keep in mind that I still have to try to get the safety working so there is still a lot to do.

As for getting the dies, that was a real luck out. I didn't want to get wrapped around the axle with the RCBS custom shop. Worst case I would have had to send them three fire formed cases and they would engineer a set of dies. Cost would have been unbelievably expensive. As it is, I won't be full length sizing the brass anyway. I'll set the die back a bit so it only sizes the neck for reloading. That way, hopefully I'll extend the life of the cases. I also don't know how annealing the cases will effect their life as they might stretch too quickly and separate or crack. Lots to do and more questions than answers at this point.

Thanks for the input.

rick

 

[ricksengines]

One thing I forgot to mention. Looking at the pic I posted of the two rounds, the reloaded round looks like the case has a very slight taper to it that the fired round doesn't have. I'll have to measure that and it could be just an optical illusion. I hope that is all it is because if not there could be an issue with the dies relative to the actual chamber dimensions.

rick