Old SCA Records on behalf of Sakojim

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by bigcountry4me, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. bigcountry4me

    bigcountry4me Well-Known Member

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    At Sakojim’s request.

     

  2. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    A big thank you to a fellow Oregonian.
    I wish to also thank the folks that organized and maintain this website. It is a very informative and well accepted means to share information about one of the best factory produced firearms available on the used market for collectors.
    It is supported by those who seek information concerning manufacture and shipping dates, moderators of this forum and those who collect and enjoy shooting the older Sako quality firearms. Changes come with the passing of time.
    Many folks are interested in the older Sako actions as a better base for customized builds. This is effecting the market. M995 TRGs Sako rifles are becoming the attraction for precision shooters that seek parts for the military versions
    or custom builds. As a result, it is becoming more difficult to find various calibers and models. My personal interests are only to promote the collection and preserve the older and rarer variations of Sako rifles.
    So to begin with, I will present my opinions on the following points and hope that those of like mind will join the discussion. Better yet, maybe some of you collectors will share data on the rarest of rare of these rifles.
    I believe that Sako produced rifles for world wide distribution in the following ways to stay in business for so long: The factory manufactured rifles to sell under a distributor network in many countries by the orders that were for products that would be most popular for sales in those specific areas. Sako produced specific orders for smaller firearms dealers all over the world. Sako produced a small number of presentation firearms and accessories for dignitaries and officials world wide. In other words, the factory produced whatever necessary to survive the competitive markets in order to be in business this long. Sako outsourced custom engraving, parts and accessories.
    So as a conclusion for discussion I believe that collecting Sako products can be a very enjoyable hobby that will fit most wallets. What makes it so intriguing is that there is no iron clad data to support the theory that Sako rifles were all built exactly the same for any specific model series. Sako also sold actions in the white, blued, and barreled actions for customizing by other arms manufacturers and dealers.
    I am fond of M995 models, which may be the purest as far as identical products. BUT- here again all of the M995s produced had blued actions and barrels except the Lazzeroni Firebird and Warbird which have stainless barrels and different butte pads (minus the tapered adjustment shims) from all other M995 rifles. If anyone has other factory variations (not customized), please speak up.
    I welcome any and all comments that may agree or disagree with my opinions. I seek any information that will help collectors verify the variations of all Sako firearms. With the increased interest in Sako rifles from different countries
    that is shown on this website, much is to be learned by all of us.
    As an example: Sako built and distributed only barreled actions in 458 Win. But would you also believe that Sako did build 24 L61r rifles in that caliber in 1972? These had "Special MacMillian wood grain fiberglass stock". One was serial #75494. RARE. It has long been disputed that Sako outsourced the barrels for the 458 Win because they have never had any barrel production capability bigger than .416. Just a couple of the interesting anomalies about Sako rifles.
    As I stated before, I have some old information that may help solve some of the disagreements about Sako production. So lets share a discussion. Just remember, when it comes to Sako production anything might be possible.
    Sakojim.
     
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  3. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Never say "never" when speaking of Sakos. And for that matter, never say "always", either.

    Being a relatively small gun manufacturer, Sako rarely let a part, whether current or "obsolete", go to waste. As a result, you'll find no "bright line" with most manufacturing changes and an individual rifle may exhibit several features which might appear to be chronologically inconsistent. That's just the way they are.

    With a Winchester, for example, you might find that everything after serial number XXX,XXX used this sight or that retaining pin. It just 'tain't so with Sako.

    Sakojim: Please post whatever materials you might have. I'm sure we'll find them of interest.
     
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  4. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Thank you stonecreek.
    Browsing through some of the SCA newsletters and Finnmark literature that I have is very interesting. It definitely puts to rest many controversial points about the relationship between the factory personnel and SCA members. They definitely had a very good working relationship between Stoeger, the factory and the Club that included discounted prices, custom rifle orders, rifle design choices and visits to Finland and the factory. Unfortunately some Club members messed up the discount agreement and Stoeger and the factory ended the agreement.
    As to the literature that I have, unfortunately I and my computer are not good at forwarding images or data, so I will not be able to post these. The best I am able to do at this time is generate curiosity from our members by quoting descriptions of some of the very rare and one-of-a-kind rifles that Sako has produced. The pictures of these are small and poor quality, so would not post or expand for any benefit. So to begin with, here is the description of a Shotgun!
    Quote: "Sako 12 gauge Prototype O/U Shotgun - 12 gauge, serial no.6, 28 inch round bbl, blued finish, walnut stock. Ventilated rib. Choked full and modified. 14 inch pull. Single trigger and engraved frame. One of 25 prototypes manufactured. The gun was a gift to the President of Garcia Corp. in 1972, therefore, the only known one to be shipped to the U.S." ( Can't help but wonder- where is it now? Or are there 24 more somewhere.)
    This should generate some discussion as to who actually built this gun. Was it outsourced by Sako or was it actually built by the factory? Were the other 24 also shotguns or were they referring to all firearm prototypes?
    Another Example: "Sako F.N. Weatherby Bolt Action Sporting Rifle - Weatherby 300 Mag Cal. serial no. 112161, 24 inch round bbl, blued finish. Rare. Only 125 Sako Weatherby's were produced."
    Anyone out there have one? Sakojim.
     
  5. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Sakojim: What source are you quoting from? Is this from old Finnmark newsletters, or from an auction catalog, or where?

    Incidentally, I bought two rifles from Mr. Timmerman, who would have been the president of Garcia in 1972. This was somewhere around 2003 or so. He said he still did some bird hunting and wasn't offering his hunting shotguns for sale, but whether the prototype O/U was still in his possession I wouldn't know. He did have one of the rare Berglasbossen (sp?) 2-shot stainless steel pump shotguns which I purchased. It was apparently a salesman's sample which was brought to him by one of Garcia's European buying agents. Garcia didn't think enough of the shotgun to contract to import it and therefore only a couple of hundred were ever made.

    Previous information I've seen indicates that the O/U shotgun prototypes were built by a contractor -- Hungarian, IIRC.
     
  6. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    stoncreek. I do not know the original source of these pictures and descriptions. My source is from the files of an older member of the SCA from whom I purchased the last of his collection decades ago. Also included are a complete record and pictures of the SCA commemorative set which may have serial numbers corresponding to his membership number. This was offered as common practice for the first sets as a special order from the factory. Sako One was given set # 1. These photocopies of 167 items showing pictures and descriptions (including all serial numbers) are old and of poor quality and small, so reproduction would not improve scrutiny. I assume that this file was compiled by one of the first members of SCA as there is correspondence between him and MIMs and factory personnel. I may soon learn his identity and if he also made one of the tours to the factory in Finland. There are 12 pages (some may be duplicates) and most are double sided. I am assuming that these may have been obtained while visiting the factory in Finland because most of them are of American models and many prototypes. Basically they are all of very important collector interest because of the rarity described.
    I am also inclined to believe that, as I have stated before, many variations and custom orders were outsourced by Sako and would be difficult establish due to lack of factory records. This is why I suspect that these pictures and descriptions were obtained directly from factory personnel by an original SCA member while at the factory. The literature that I have indicates that all records were open to the SCA members while at the factory.
    If any one has this type of correspondence from that era, I would love to share information to establish the authenticity of these firearms that are described. I have seen comments on this website concerning 'Holy Grail's' worth searching for, but as these descriptions shown on these pages indicate, there are many more that may have been forgotten with time. Also it may be possible some one may not know what they really have stored in the safe. Sakojim.
     
  7. douglastwo

    douglastwo Well-Known Member

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    sakojim, I don't know where the Sako shotgun is now, but it was offered in the November 1996 RI auction as lot number 1114. It was one of many sakos in that auction that did not sell.
     
  8. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Douglas. Seems odd that it did not sell unless the reserve was similar to Angry God's asking prices. This may indicate that it is possibly still in the same family. But also possibly was sold through a dealer. As rare as it is, lets hope that it is in good original condition and well cared for. Eventually it will show up. Sakojim.
     
  9. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Rare. Any one see one of these? The following is printed below the picture.
    "Sako A-V Battue Bolt Acton Carbine - 338 Win cal, serial number 801539, 19-1/2 inch round bbl, blued finish, walnut stock.
    In original box, numbered to carbine, with documentation. Box is in excellent plus condition. One of 25 manufactured."
    Should be at least a couple in the U. S.
    Sakojim.
     
  10. gowyo

    gowyo Sako Junkie

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    No, but I know where its handsome, wood enhanced brother is...
     
  11. sakojim

    sakojim Well-Known Member

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    Hi gowyo.
    Sounds like it is well cared for. Glad to know that it is in good hands. It's a rare one.
    Sakojim.
     
  12. gowyo

    gowyo Sako Junkie

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    This would be the kokotukki that Nosoil recently forced upon me.
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. icebear

    icebear Sako-addicted

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    Envious of the wood. Not so much the caliber - the fireball out the muzzle must be spectacular, not to mention recoil, noise, and muzzle blast. My .30-06 was bad enough before I worked up a good handload with fast powder.
     

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