New member, relatively new Sako owner, not new to shooting

Discussion in 'New members, please introduce yourselves here!' started by archangel485, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. archangel485

    archangel485 Member

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    Hello all, I'm a member of a handful of other forums. I recently (in the last couple years) bought 3 L461s from my grandma, at first it was just because I liked the idea of having the small caliber rifles. Since purchasing them I've become smitten with them, and have referenced several posts on this forum for various questions, so decided I needed to join the forum. I've been shooting since I was really young (7 ish) and reloading since I was 15, so 20 years. The last 5 years or so I've done a lot more of the work on my own rifles, tinkering and customizing them, so have become more interested in some of the details of how different rifles work including my little L461s. I just love that these little actions are purpose built for the small rifle cartridges, they're controlled round feed (wrong, they are not, see below for many responses that correct this), excellent triggers, and the Fins did a great job of making them very consistent with each other.

     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  2. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    You are correct that the L461 is a wonderful sized to caliber action, but they are NOT controlled round feed.
     
  3. archangel485

    archangel485 Member

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    Hmm, okay, then I need to learn some more. @paulsonconstruction would you categorize them as push feed then? I always thought if the ejector was a mechanical ejector, meaning the round wasn't ejected until the bolt was brought all the way back, allowing you to control how far and fast it gets kicked out, and the extractor/bolt held the cartridge to the centerline of the bore all the way back until contacting the ejector, that made it a CRF action. Is a bighorn Origin considered CRF if you're familiar with those? These little Sakos are pretty similar to an Origin in my limited view. At the end of the day, those features I just mentioned are what I love about the action, whatever it's called, but thanks for correcting me that CRF is not the correct term. Does the bolt face have to have an open bottom that allows the brass rim to slip up in behind the extractor to be considered CRF maybe? Anyways, looking forward to learning already. :)
     
  4. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Yes, this is typically the way "controlled feed" actions work. There are some variations on this method, and the current Sako Model 85 uses such a variation to achieve a type of "controlled round feeding".

    Sakos in the L- and A-series are considered "push feed". CRF advocates disparage push feed actions, but in reality there are more ways that a CRF action can misfeed than a push feed action. I've never been able to hold a Sako at any angle or position in which it misfeeds when operated as intended. On the other hand, rifles of other makes, including both push feed and CRF, can and do misfeed more often than Sakos in my experience.
     
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  5. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    Controlled round feed has it's origins in military bolt action rifles from well over 100 years ago. The principle behind it was for the bolt to pick up a round from the magazine & have the rim slide up behind the extractor as it left the magazine. The purpose of that design was to allow the bolt to be pulled back without the round being fully chambered & still have it eject from the action. This was based on actual battle conditions where soldiers would cycle the bolt multiple times, in the confusion & panic of a firefight, & never fire a round. If a soldier pushed the bolt forward on a push feed action & didn't fully chamber a round where the extractor could engage the rim & then pulled the bolt back, the round would be left partially in the chamber. When he then pushed the bolt forward to chamber the next round the rifle was jammed with two rounds. This was not a good thing when you are in a firefight. THIS is the purpose of a controlled round feed action. A controlled round feed bolt face has the bottom of it's front end machined flush with the bolt face of the bolt to allow the rim to go behind the extractor as it comes out of the magazine. There are other things done to the magazine follower & feed rails to enhance this as well. If you will "look" at your Sako bolt face it has a rim that extends out from the bolt face in it's entire circumference. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the rim to be engaged in the extractor until the round is fully chambered & the bolt closed. Try pushing a round partially into your chamber on your L461 actions, then pull the bolt back & see what happens. Ejection & extraction are two different functions performed by different parts in totally different places within the action. You need to educate yourself about the history, purpose, & mechanical function of a controlled round feed action before posting MISINFORMATION. You are confusing mechanical ejection with spring plunger ejection & trying to relate that to controlled round feeding. I am curious where you got the information that allowed you to form such an erroneous idea as to what a controlled round feed action is because a complete explanation & analysis of Paul Mauser's design is readily available with a click of your mouse.
     
  6. douglastwo

    douglastwo Well-Known Member

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    Archangel, I collect a few Ruger Express rifles (stop throwing rocks please :D ) and they were made with both type bolts. Here's a photo of 2 Express rifles showing both types that might help you recognize the difference.

    Control Feed.jpg Push Feed.jpg
     
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  7. coldspring

    coldspring Active Member

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    Another supposed advantage of CRF is the ability to work the action with the rifle upside down without the round dropping out if one were in the low crawl; useful while under combat obstacles such as barbed wire or avoiding fire; one could argue this may be useful hunting Cape buffalo-if one is fortunate to survive the first charge. I did a side by side experiment with a Ruger M77 and Remington 700 and found no real problem or difference; opinions do vary.
     
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  8. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    The great disadvantage I've found to some CRF actions is that they will jam if a cartridge is fed directly into the chamber -- that is, the extractor will not slip or snap over the rim of the cartridge, thus pushing it hard into the chamber when the shooter jams forward on the bolt and sometimes requiring a rod down the bore to dislodge it. Ironically, I've found this most often on military Mausers, where you'd think that the builder would go to great lengths to avoid this problem. Old timers used to call such a jam "being Mauser-ed", and would caution you to always place the cartridge below the magazine lips so that the rim would slide under the extractor as it feeds upward from the magazine.

    Not only is there this tendency to jam with some CRF's, but such an action effectively limits the cartridge capacity of the rifle since it is difficult or virtually impossible to place an "extra" round directly into the chamber. With a Sako (or other push feed actions) you can load the magazine fully, then drop another round into the loading port while slightly depressing the top round in the magazine to allow the bolt to slide over it and thus chamber the "extra" round.

    Not only does a Sako L61R, A-III, or A-V hold four belted magnum rounds in the magazine (instead of three like most CRF actions), but it allows you to load a fifth into the chamber. In normal hunting this extra capacity is not normally needed, but I can recall two occasions in which the game animal would have been lost but for the "extra" shot in my magazine.

    Most Model 70 Winchesters which have the Mauser-type long extractor have the front of the extractor beveled sufficiently to snap over the rim of a single-loaded cartridge. This is probably true with later Ruger 77's, but I've never used one of those. However, I've gotten accidentally "Mauser-ed" any number of times with a Model 98.
     
  9. archangel485

    archangel485 Member

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    Great info. The Origin extractor slides side to side for this reason, but it's good to know it's something to watch out for on other CRF actions.
     
  10. archangel485

    archangel485 Member

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    I bet people never wonder what your opinion is or where they stand with you @paulsonconstruction. haha, anyways I assure you I didn't intend to post misinformation, I never do, I have been proven wrong so many times that I'm well aware of the fact that I'm full of wrong ideas, hence why I come places like this forum to learn. I truly appreciate all who replied to my post, I have edited my original post in a way to ensure others won't be misled. I am clear on what makes an action controlled round feed now, thank you all.
     
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