Sako Is this legit?

Discussion in 'Sako Long/Magnum Actions' started by Bernie’s Dad, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    It’s true. I already feel it. I wasn’t sure I would like it but I really do.


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  2. ricksengines

    ricksengines Sako-addicted

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  3. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Engines

    Thank you so so much. I just plowed through your treatise (although I intend to read it a few more times to absorb more of it). Maybe I'll print it and bind it and put in on my bench. My first question relates to seating depth. You advocate .005 jump. I've seen some say .020 is as close as you should get. The obvious competing concern is whether there is enough meat of the bullet in the neck for the case to hang on to. I stopped at .080 from the lands because any longer with my 154 grain bullet would leave the bullet too far out of the neck (maybe?). I was told a rule of thumb is that you should seat at least your caliber into the neck (meaning my .284 bullets should be at least .284" into the neck). I fell on the conservative side and made sure that my boat tail was below the shoulder/neck joint and that the entire neck grabbed some bullet. This put me at .080. This seating depth was tested at one consistent charge weight and .080 shot the tightest groups.

    I then played with charge weights. Hornady lists 52.9 as the max load for its IMR4350. I started at 51.0, then went up in .5 increments (51.5, 52.0, 52.5, 52.9). I read that you recommend .2 increments.
    The best group was at 51, and they got worse the hotter I went.

    I let the barrel cool between shots but not 5 mins. I usually shot my 3 shot groups about one per minute. I didn't run a patch through as you suggest.

    I intend to test this load again to see if it wasn't a one off.

    Going forward, if I understand you, I should move up in .2 increments, wait longer between shots, run a dry patch between groups, and maybe get closer to the lands?
     
  4. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    The increments in which you increase the powder charge should be proportional to the volume of the cartridge. Two-tenths might be appropriate in a .222 which has just over 20 grains of capacity, but with a .30-06-sized case being nearly three times as large, a .2 grain increase in powder would get lost in the statistical noise. Your half-grain increments are more appropriate to cartridges of this size.

    So long as the case neck has an adequate grip in the bullet there is no requirement for the bullet to be seated as much as "a caliber" deep. There isn't even a caliber available in the neck of some cartridges like a .300 Win Mag. I like to seat as close to the lands as possible (if allowed by the restriction of magazine length). Bullet should not be jammed into the lands, which can (allegedly) cause pressure spikes, but so long as there is any clearance between the bullet and the lands the LOA is just fine. Seating depth may make a difference in how a load performs and sometimes a bullet seated some distance from the lands works better, but that is the exception and not the rule. Handloaders are warned not to seat monometal bullets like the Barnes line too close to the lands, but unless you are in a "no lead" jurisdiction there is no other excuse for using a monometal bullet.

    Different barrels (and calibers) foul at different rates. Sako hammer-forged barrels will typically go for more shots than most due to their interior smoothness. I wouldn't worry about cleaning the fouling until you have at least a couple of dozen rounds down the barrel. Again, this assumes you are using conventional jacketed lead bullets and not the monometals which smear the bore with an extra coat of copper every time you pull the trigger.

    There is lots of good advice in Rick's treatise on accuracy (and maybe a few things that others might take issue with), but remember, Rick is working largely with small, varmint-type calibers from .17 to .22 and not with larger big game calibers. There are some natural adjustments in accuracy strategies as you increase both case size and bore size.
     
  5. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Sounds good. Rick suggests that seating too far back from the lands can cause throat erosion faster than normal? Did I read that right?


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  6. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    Take what ever you hear about all this reloading "science" with a grain of salt. There are no hard and fast rules as "rick "would have you believe. Just reload your ammo, go test it, & draw your own conclusions about your reloads in your rifle & stop worrying about what others are doing. Seating depth is not something that one can define in a numerical "exactness". I've had rifles that like a seating depth both close & far away from the lands. It's up to you to find the proper COAL. Sometimes it doesn't matter at all. You are NEVER going to shoot the throat out of a "hunting" rifle in your life time, so stop fretting over it. Stop trying to figure it all out from the internet & just reload & shoot. That will tell you what works. Just my two cents.
     
  7. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Sounds good.


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  8. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    I agree with this .. a hunting rifle, for the most, only get fired a few times a year. Once it’s sighted in and doing what it needs to do. The average dude will never shoot one out. Hand loading will give rifles more of a work out , being fired more often until a satisfactory load is developed. Then..it’s back to a few shots a year , especially when one has multiple rifles to select from. I’m sure there will be exceptions to this. PD hunters will have higher round counts, as will competition shooters.
    Most guns that are thought to be shot out are more likely fouled out.
    Keeping the rifle clean and maintained will provide the optimum platform for accuracy, but each and every factor after that will bring deviations. From scope placement and installation to screw tightness to which brass or which pill, which powder, which bench and bag set up your using. The adverse effects of all this crap can cause groups to spread to gianormous proportions. (Improved vocabulary!)

    Hand loading is all about resources, both published and personal. Keep track of the numbers. Cross reference the facts, and alway follow the rules. Mostly have patience..
    I’m sure everyone involved with this has something valid added to this thread. Some of it coincides and some stands out. But PC is right…it’s gonna be up to you to work through it.

    If worse comes to worse, purchase at least 2 bullet pullers, when shit goes bad, you will have one for each hand.:cool:

    bloo
     
  9. P04R

    P04R Well-Known Member

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    I bet case comes back and hits the rear ring of the receiver just behind the ejection port. Just pull the bolt little slower. That's the nature of the "mechanical ejector". When at the range I personally don't even eject the empty cases, I just pull the bolt back just enough and pick the case off the bolt face. Naturally in the field cases get ejected hard and far, get dented and sometimes lost. It's not that big of a cost or loss in my opinion compared to the gains and joys of hunting. And as mentioned those dents should come out with the expander anyway. You have a beautiful rifle in great caliber.
     
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  10. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. It turned out not to be a problem. At the range when shooting it ejects spent cases just fine.

    How are things in Finland?


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  11. P04R

    P04R Well-Known Member

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    Nothing too exciting. Moose (or elk) hunt started yesterday in Lapland. That's where I'm headed. Fuel prices are pretty crippling, so we'll see if I have enough money to come back. :D
     
  12. Old Hippie

    Old Hippie Formerly known as bloorooster

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    True! I loose more brass this way! When I shoot at game, my brain goes into a auto-loader mode, cycling the spent round into oblivion! It happens so fast I can’t even recall cycling it but I know I already have. lol! I’ve spent hours of accumulated time looking for those pieces of spent brass! I credit this syndrome to all the years I hunted with Remchester rifles and the need of a follow up shot! It simply does not happen as much with a Sako!:rolleyes:

    Bloo
     
  13. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Nonsense. Some small amount of erosion occurs at the cartridge mouth, but that doesn't change with bullet seating depth. Throat erosion is caused by the hot gases from the burning of the powder, the temperature of which briefly exceeds the melting temperature of barrel steel. The higher the pressure the hotter the gases (generally), and the larger the powder charge in relation to the bore then the further down the throat the hot gases reach before cooling below melt temperature. Regardless of how shallow or deep the bullet is seated, the gas temperature and volume will be essentially the same, thus whatever throat erosion they cause will be the same.

    I agree that there is almost no reason to worry about wearing out the bore (much less "shooting out the throat") of a hunting rifle. People who shoot factory loads may use only a single box of 20 rounds for a decade.

    On the other hand, if you handload for your hunting rifle you will shoot an order of magnitude more rounds at the bench in load development and zeroing than you will ever shoot at game. Being injudicious (how about that for a vocabulary word, Hippie?) at the bench by shooting multiple groups without allowing the barrel to cool can be detrimental to your barrel's health.

    Tip: If you have a chronograph (and since they are inexpensive these days every handloader should have one), shoot through the chronograph screens at your target to both measure velocity and assess accuracy with the same set of shots, thus saving powder, bullets, and barrel health.

    Experience is a great teacher: I still own my very first Sako which is now over 50 years old. It is a .264 Win Mag, a round famous for "burning barrels". For the first two decades it was virtually my only centerfire rifle. Not only did I work up dozens of loads for it (many of them excessively high in pressure/velocity typical of youthful enthusiasm coupled with teenage invincibility), but I also shot it at everything from ground squirrels to elk. As a result of those many thousands of rounds, it has a throat that looks like alligator hide. Despite that, it still puts the first shot from a cold barrel exactly where it should, and will still shoot MOA groups.
     
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  14. icebear

    icebear Sako-addicted

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    To add just a bit to Stonecreek's excellent comment, military rifles take much more abuse and fire many more rounds than hunting rifles. I collect Finnish military weapons, and despite decades of being fired with corrosive ammo, most of them will still shoot 2 MOA or better with open sights. I've had rifles that you could barely see the rifling when I started to clean them up turn out to shoot very well indeed once they were clean. The crown, and the last few inches of rifling at the muzzle, are the keys to accuracy. You see a lot of Finnish military rifles that have been counterbored because of damage to the rifling at the muzzle end - not from shooting, but from careless cleaning with a steel rod. The throat is far less important for accuracy than the crown.
     
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  15. ricksengines

    ricksengines Sako-addicted

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    I would like to correct Stone and Paul on their comments regarding my thread on Improving Accuracy. the processes for determining bullet seating depth are not just for 17 and 22 caliber cartridges. They have proven to be useful when working up reload for calibers from 14 up to the 460 Magnum. If my recommendations are of no merit where hunting rifles are concerned may I suggest just buying a box or two of commercial ammo and live with the accuracy attained or better yet just get a box of powder scoops and fill the cases with a scoop or two of powder using them and live with the results.

    Working up accurate loads doesn't require loading and firing hundreds of rounds to develop reloads that are tuned to a specific rifles appetite.

    rick
     
  16. Stan the Gun man

    Stan the Gun man Active Member

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    I'm usually not very fond of Bavarian type stocks, I really don't like shooting with them. But that one looks really good! Think you scored a nice one there! :)
     
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  17. Bernie’s Dad

    Bernie’s Dad Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Stan. These stocks aren’t so common here. I think this is a “bring back” from Europe. Are these sold in Sweden?


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