Hunting bullet selection:

[lhsako]

• which ones do you find perform the best?​
• 1) for deer sized game​
• 2) for elk/moose/bear​

 

[stonecreek]

Lots of good bullets on the market these days. I find Noslers to do well in most all of my guns, and the Ballistic Tip is a favorite for deer (although any standard cup-and-core bullet will do fine for deer if it provides good accuracy). For larger game it's hard to beat the tried and true Nosler Partition. Three of us used partitions (180's in .30-06 and .300 Win, and 225's in a .338) on our African plains game trip and they performed flawlessly on game up to 700 pounds. I hear very positive things about the Accubond, which provides Ballistic Tip accuracy and ballistic coefficients with terminal performance similar to the Partition. I have only had occasion to use the Accubond (.30/180gr) on deer and wild hogs on which it performed admirably, but neither of those is too much of a challenge for a bullet so I can't say from personal experience how it will do on larger game. I did hunt elk with the .30/180 Accubond last fall, but the elk were unable to find me.

 

[lhsako]

i agree! many more good ones than when i began this journey of discovery...lol. the partition IS my go-to bullet for the big stuff too. the 225 in my .338 has always inpressed me on elk. i like the partition alot since it expands quickly and tears up the bio-machinery so to speak. recovered slugs under that elastic hide go 70%+ weight retention in my experience. i also have great praise for the 250 grand slam in that rifle. took some moose and big black bears w/ it. 90% weight retention in this csae. i suspect that the muzzle velocity of 2,760 helps in that matter. i've seen the GS not fare so well when pushed above 3,000 fps mv in smaller bores. the accubond does appear to be a good bullet accuracy wise ( can u say ballistic tip) and in terms of terminal prefomance. 60-70% on deer sized animals. would like to hear reports of how they do on elk,etc. w. those bigger skeletons and such. the 225 AB in the .338 for that application intergues me.......

 

[deadeyemark]

My favorite all time hunting bullet would have to be the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Great accuracy with 95+% weight retention. I've only recovered a couple of them and that includes lengthwise shots on deer.

Next would be the Swift Scirroco II. You could say it's a Nosler Ballistic Tip on Steroids. Thicker jacket than the Accubond., match grade accuracy, bonded core/jacket with 90+% weight retention. I've only recovered a couple of these also.

Swift A-Frame bullets are similar to the Nosler Partition but have a bonded front section for 95+% weight retention.

I shoot 130 gr Swift Scirrocos and 140 gr Bear Claws out of my .270, 150 and 165 gr Scirrocos and Bear Claws out of my 30-06, 210 gr Scirrocos and 225 gr Bear Claws and A-Frames out of my 338. All of these bullets shoot MOA or better and have a proven track record when I do my part.

Mark

 

[sserlachius]

Hi Mark,

Another example on the excellence of the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet.

This warthog was shot with a "Texas heart shot" at abt 80 yards and the bullet travelled along the whole hog penetrating lungs and heart and was found perfectly mushroomed just under the breastbone. The warthog didn't take a step after the shot. (Rifle: Sako Safari .375H&H).

SS

 

[bloorooster]

SS, "texas heart shot" I'm figuring thats the same as what I call the "last chance shot" . It is a very effective shot, but field dressing is not as savory, some of my buddies use the Trophy Bonded and I hear nothing but good remarks on it
I am also amazed at how much a different hat does for your smile! :wink2:-Bloo

 

[stonecreek]

There must be some confusion about the nomenclature of shot placement. The shot you refer to is the one we call the "Oklahoma Brain Shot".

 

[sserlachius]

Right Bloo,

The hat sure makes a difference....

SS

 

[ishawooa]

I have used quite successfully Bear Claws, Partitions, and numerous others but now use Berger VLDs almost exclusively except for my .338 and my .416. High BC, tight groups, consistent accuracy, acceptable pressures, excellent performance on game near or far. The price of them has doubled in the last two years is the only drawback, still no more costly than other premium bullets. You might consider them for future loads. My son and I have made numeerous one shot kills on animals up to elk.

 

[lhsako]

Here's a follow up to all the good info everyone has provided.Glad to have so many great responses ! weight retention is a very desireable quality in a hunting bullet. most expanding bullets that retain weight(e.g. 90%) also retain frontal area. (ok, the X not as much since it has less frontal area. ) i have found that the incresed frontal frontal area of many bullets reduces penatration. it creates resistance while it destroys tissue as it goes through the animal. many times it will be found just under the hide. The X out penatrates most other brands. The wound channel is smaller however.usually it exits. the partition does sacrifice about 30-40% early on in its travel after impact. the remaining part has a much less frontal area. It then is able to continue on its way creating a longer wound channel. May times it will exit, but not always and can be found under the hide on the far side. It's just a pick your poison situation/u can argue the laws of physics but can't change them/ not such thing as a free lunch kinda deal. Let's here your thoughts/experiences on this.

 

[stonecreek]

Some bullet fragmentation is a good thing. While the hydraulic shock (cavitation) caused by a non-fragmenting bullet potentially does some harm to vital organs, the fragmentation and actual penetration of organs near, but not in, the path of the bullet creates a great deal of leathal trauma. We sometimes forget that a bullet inflicts a leathal wound by damaging or destroying organs. If it does not damage or destroy organs then it amounts to little more than an arrow and must kill, albeit somewhat slowly, through loss of blood.

I like to see a bullet lose a third or so of its weight. This means that bullet fragments have had an opportunity to scatter into organs near the path of the bullet and damage them. We too often believe that deep penetration is important. What is important is not deep penetration, but appropriate penetration. A bullet must hold together far enough into the animal to deliver the fragments to the internal organs, not scatter them on the hide and near muscle wall. But a bullet that exits the far muscle wall with all of its mass intact, even it if its well-expanded, will inflict less trauma that one which leaves fragments inside.

Finding the "right" bullet is something of a balancing act. A bullet that is optimum for a whitetail won't be optimum for a Cape Buffalo. The current fashionability of "premium" bullets has a lot of whitetail hunters shooting bullets that sometimes let those little deer run off quite a ways before succumbing to blood loss. Ironically, the hunter's typical reaction to the "poor" performance of his premium bullet tends to be to go looking for a heavier, tougher bullet! What he should be looking for is a deer bullet, not a moose and eland bullet. Hunters should save those high-priced premium bullets for when they have a high-priced premium target like a 900-lb elk or a 1,400-lb eland in their sights.

 

[sakotex]

I don't have experience with a wide array of bullets. But my experience seems to bear out Stones comments about the the importance of fragmentation:
140gr NBT in 7/08: Explosive damage to the chest cavity and a large exit wounds on deer and pronghorns. No bullets were ever recovered but the tissue and organ damage sure looked like explosive expansion and fragmentation. On one PH at 200 yds facing me, the bullet basically field dressed the animal. One walking deer at 50 yds angling toward me that I led too much and hit his off side shoulder a glancing blow but one sizable fragment took out his heart and dropped him. Downside to this bullet in my hands is a lot of bloodshot tissue at the exit wound.
90gr Barnes Bonded Spitzer in 257 WM: One deer at 175yds hit broadside in the spine. Wound showed little expansion but dropped him in his tracks.
85gr Sierra HPBT Gameking in 6mmPPC: One deer at 125yds broadside hit in spine. Wound showed good expansion and dropped him in his tracks.
75gr Sierra HP Varmint in 6mmPPC: Deer 140yds, explosive expansion with a slight quartering away shot to the chest dropped him in his tracks and pureed the organs. Broadside shoulder shot at 100 yds on another deer fragmented after penetrating the bone and shreded the heart. Deer went 15yds before piling up. No exit wounds.
168gr Barnes TSXBT in 308: Deer at 175yds broadside chest shot. Excellent expansion and I saw the large spray of blood and tissue from the off side as the rifle came out of recoil. Deer went 15yds before piling up. Another deer at 200yds quartering very slightly away shot in the shoulder and dropped in its tracks. Shoulder was disentegrated and organs destroyed. Good exit wounds for making a blood trail.
55gr TBBC in 22-250: Several pronghorns at 80yds or so broadside or slight quartering with chest shot. Excellent expansion and organ damage but no exit wounds. PH's went 50yds before keeling over dead.
55gr Hornady HP Varmint in 22-250: Several deer at 75yds or less. All chest shots showing explosive expansion and fragmentation. Deer traveled 50-100yds before expiring from major organ damage but no exit wounds.
I no longer hunt PH's and deer with 22 cal.
140gr Federal Premium in 7mmRM: Broadside mule deer at 250 yds hit a little too far back but anchored him for a finishing shot with pistol.
175gr spitzer of some sort in 7mmRM: Broadside deer at 20 yds hit in spine dropped him. No expansion.
Hope this helps.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

ihsako:
Another thing to consider when choosing a bullet for the game being hunted and how that bullet will perform at impact is velocity. A bullet needs to be going at least 2100 fps at impact to create full hydrostatic shock. I have found that if you have hydrostatic shock @ impact adequate penetration is not an issue when using a bullet designed for the type of animal being hunted. So, depending on your cartridge/bullet combination your bullet performance will vary in relation to the distance. Knowing what distance I could expect for a shot will have an influence on the cartridge/bullet I choose. I prefer not to shoot an animal that is too far away for my load to deliver hydrostatic shock, as I think it has more influence in anchoring an animal than penetration. I agree with Stonecreek that some of the premium bullets marketed for deer are too tough & hard & don't transfer all their energy into the animal before exiting. Of course, good shot placement makes most of the issues I concern myself with a mute point. Just wish I could place them all perfectly.

 

[sakotex]

hi paulson-
What's the source for the minimum 2100 fps for full shock to occur? Does frontal diameter of the bullet after initial expansion have any bearing on hydrostatic shock?

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Sakotex:
Read a critique/article years ago by a ballistics guru (can't remember his name) when the Weatherby magnum craze was sweeping the rifle world. The guy went thru some extensive testing on ballistic gelatin & live sheep & goats that were going to be slaughtered anyway. He did talk about frontal diameter & design having an influence & that the 2100 fps was the average minimum he came up with for big game hunting. He also said that different animal skin/muscle/bone structure could influence results. Remember too that these test were with the bullets available over 40 years ago. He felt that the "killing power" @ distance of the Weatherby's was mainly due to the increased hydrostatic shock they offered @ longer distances than standard loads. At shorter distances he said the difference was inconsequential. I'm sure that the bullets today probably will change things a little bit. I have kind of been testing his theory over the years while shooting prairie dogs. I chronogragh my bullets & run a ballistics program so I know the velocity at the different distances I am shooting. When I some how hit a long range dog @ a velocity under 2000 I see a dramatic lack of explosiveness. I have noticed the newer bullets like the Nosler BT's seem to still have some hydrostatic effect @ 1900, but it could be the bullet is more explosive. This it not a scientifically base test on my part, just some personal observation & opinion. Please take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[deadeyemark]

For many years(years ago), I was a fan of fragmentation and killed my share of deer with the standard cup/core bullets available at the time. A Nosler Partition(.270, 150 gr) put my first elk on the ground with a broadside, pass thru shot to both lungs at about 150yds. After a 400 yd blood trail, my son and I found the elk. Upon gutting and doing some investigating, the lungs had merely a small hole thru both. The entrance hole in the hide was tiny as expected but so was the exit. Thank God for trailing snow.
The next year one mule deer buck needed a second shot and another needed a second and a third(.270, 130gr Nosler Ballistic Tip). One buck was hit high in the shoulder broadside on the first shot at about 200yds. The second shot hit the lungs broadside. When I reached the deer, I saw that the first shot had disintegrated against the shoulder blade without any penetration at all. All the meat around that shoulder had to be discarded because of the terrible bullet fragmentation. The second bullet destroyed the lungs, fragmented and only the jacket was recovered.
The second deer had been hit too far back by my hunting partner. Gut shot. Thanx again for snow. While trailing the deer, only I could see it when it did jump up so I took the shot - twice. Both shots hit the young buck in the front shoulder broadside but he didn't fall untill the second shot which was actually the third bullet to hit him. We skinned the deer back at camp and discovered that my first Nosler BT disintegrated against the shoulder(again)with no penetration at all. My second Nosler BR barely made it into the lungs. This explains why we waited yet another 10 minutes for the deer to die. It would seem we had to wait for the deer to bleed to death. My partner said he threw all the meat away around the front shoulder I hit with my first shot.
These were not my only bad experiences with cup/core non bonded bullets but this led to the start of my bullet education and some extensive testing by myself. The Barnes X bullet was brand new and they sent me some for testing. So did Jack Carter(Trophy Bonded Bear Claw) and Lost Rivfer bullets and many other basement bullet makers. These guys were the roots of today's super premium bullets.
1992 found me in WY with three mule deer tags and a rifle loaded with 140gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. 3 mule deer with 3 shots, all dead like you turned off a light switch. No trailing, tracking or sitting by watching them bleed to death while contemplating putting a 'finishing off' shot into them..
Since then I've killed plenty of big game with TBBC bullets, Swift Scirroco bullets, Swift A-Frame bullets, Jensen bullets and Barnes X bullets. There are many more super premium bullets available to both the handloader and factory ammo shooter. Right now I'm working up loads for Barnes TTSX and MRX bullets for my 30-06.
There are two schools of thought on bullet performance: Fragmentation and Retained Weight.
I am a firm believer in the Retained Weight theory. I became a believer by first hand experience, not by glossy page adds on websites, magazines or by watching the Best of the West on TV.
Something that's been missed in many of the above posts is the fact that when a bullet mushrooms but retains it's weight(bonded core/jacket or solid expanding), velocity is also retained, much more than a bullet that has lost 50% of it's weight. Velocity kills, period. Fast. Hydrostatic shock is devastating. It's a super violent explosion inside of an animal that is not surviveable. Lights out, dead right there, right freakin now is a fact. Watch some of the ballistic gelatin bullet videos on various websites or You Tube.
Tiny fragmented pieces do not have enough weight to penetrate bone, muscle or internal organs. That is why most fragments are found scattered just under the hide on the near side.
A hydrostatic shock wave is caused by all bullets upon impact in game but this funnel shaped wave stops quickly with bullets that fragment, lose weight and velocity. This same funnel shaped wave continues much farther with a bullet that has retained most of it's weight, many times completely to the hide on the off side with the bullet exiting. This means that the MOST possible damage has been done. Anything short of this means a short fall on the bullets part.
Broadside shots are the best when you can get them but it's darn rare. More likely are quartering, raking, frontal or even Texas heart shots. Many of these opportunities cannot even be ethically taken with a lesser bullet. Last year I took a Texas heart shot on a nice 4pt muley because I knew ethically that my bullet was up to the task.
I'll probably get crucified for this but to be perfectly honest, I cannot understand why anyone would want to use any bullet that is not bonded or solid copper expanding in this day and age with everything that has been done to prove their excellence.

Choices: Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Trophy Tip, Swft Scirroco, Swift A-Frame, Fusion, Deep Curl, XP3, Barnes TSX, TTSX and MRX. I'm probably missing a couple and I apologize for that.
IE: Big muley buck, frontal. Bang - dead. Bullet entered sternum. Exited next to anus. Re-entered inside upper back leg and lodged in knee - Swift Scirroco II, .270, 130gr.
I'm referring to 200 - 250lb field dressed mule deer.
Whitetail doe. Frontal. 270, 130gr Barnes X. Entered brisket. Exited utter. Re-entered ham. Bullet recovered in knee. Deer died within feet.
Muley buck. Frontal. Head down feeding. Bullet entered at about the 3rd vertebrae with head lowered and was recovered inside of a vertebrae at the pelvis. Stone dead as the bullet went the entire length of the spine. 140gr TBBC, 270 cal.
Whiteatil buck. 270, 130gr Jensen J-26 bullet. Broadside through both shoulders and exited. Lungs destroyed. Lights out right now. Not a wiggle.
Another muley buck, this year's, Texas heart shot. Died within yards of hit. 30-06, 150gr TBBC. Entered just below rectum, broken right front shoulder. Bullet lodged in shoulder.
Another good muley buck. 150gr TBBC out of my 30-06. Broadside. Shot thru both front shoulders and exited. Lungs were liquified. Dead right now.
I can go on and on but I'll say this, if you're still stuck on your old fashioned cup/core or non bonded partition style bullets, you owe it to yourself to try some of todays super premium bullets. You'll be a believer after your first hunting trip, I garrantee it. Most shoot like match grade bullets but kill game like you turned off a light switch.

 

[sakotex]

paulson- Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful.
mark- Thanks for sharing your experiences too. Actual detailed descriptions of experiences from you, paulson, stone, ss, bloo and others is what helps rookies like me to begin to understand the realities of terminal bullet performance.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

deadeyemark:
Couldn't agree with you more on the wonderful bullets we have today versus the dark ages of the past. Even if a person doesn't handload, there are multiple choices of factory ammo available with quality premium bullets that perform at a very high level. I think that the difference is only noticeable when an animal exceeds 200#'s. Shooting a Texas whitetail is a whole lot different than shooting an Alberta whitetail. On small deer & even pronghorn (around 100#'s) the bullets you are talking about, from my limited experience, act alot like an arrow, so unless you have a severe hydrostatic effect they don't have the same effect as they do on the larger bodied animals you referred to. Which takes us back to selecting the "right" bullet for your specific task. We must also remember that "all" bullets (and everything else for that matter) are designed to perform their task within certain parameters. Those parameters are velocity @ impact, bullet placement, type & size of the animal, etc. There are so many variables to the equation of bullet perfomance that it is hard to give an answer to what bullet is "best". The experiment is what makes it fun.

 

[2greggs]

I started using these Hornady SST bullets & find they work very good in the 222, 223,.270 & 300. I now bought them for my 280. Very accurate & consistent.

 

[deadeyemark]

What's even more amazing is when you DO get to recover a super premium bullet, it's weight retention is 90 - 100%.
The hydrostatic shock wave is directly relative to the frontal mass of the bullet and velocity. So a bullet who's construction supports a large diameter mushroom vs one that doesn't, retains it's weight and retains it's velocity much longer which translates into a larger and much more violent hydrostatic shock wave that penetrates along the bullets path.

Most of the super premium bullets available today expand immediately. There is no way to stop or slow a bullets expansion or delay it untill later unless velocity is reduced below the performance level of the bullet.

Berger says their hunting bullets doesn't expand untill it's gone 2 - 3" into the game. Probably true but it's simply because of the vey tiny meplat associated with Berger bullets. It takes 2-3" of impact penetration to get that bullet started mushrooming and then it fragments. Great if you missed the shoulder and went straight into the lungs. Otherwise not so good.
Just look at all of the bullet makers trends these day! They're all competing hard to make super premium hunting bullets. There's a darn good reason for this.
Besides, I hate trailing wounded animals and worse yet is losing one to another hunter that took advantage of the situation because it didn't fall right there.

Even smaller deer and antelope will benefit from being shot w/super premium bullet. Instant expansion means a darn fast kill and my experience has shown me and all my hunting partners that fragmentation ruins much more meat than velocity and super premium bullets do.

At least give em a try folks. You won't be disappointed.