Howa Mini vs Sako L461

[Chris Anderson]

I was reading some gun reviews yesterday and found a post that gun writer said he thought the Howa Mini was very similar to the L461 and that the basic action quality was excellent.

Anyone own/built a rifle on the Howa Mini? Any opinions about the quality of the Howa Mini? I've been looking at the CZ 527 also. Any opinions about that action? I'd like to find an action that is properly proportioned for the 17/221 Fireball. I love the L461 but an action for the Fireball cartridge could be shorter than a L461 and still have plenty of room.

Of course by the time you true the Howa and CZ actions, buy quality bottom metal ect maybe they would cost as much as a Sako AI/L461.

Thanks

 

[paulsonconstruction]

I bought a Howa "Mini" barreled action over a year ago in 6.5 Grendel & put it in a Boyd's tactical stock. The action is nothing like a Sako L461. It has a Sako/M16 type extractor & a spring powered plunger type ejector. I found the action, bolt & barrel to be well built & it shoots quite accurately. The trigger on the Howa is an excellent design & fully adjustable & easily modified with spring change outs. The bottom metal & magazine are pathetic plastic after thoughts that require replacement with DIP, Inc parts. The parts, mag release, & mag mods will run you about $200. I got a feeling the plastic mag for the Howa 223 will deal you fits with any non-standard round, but I have no experience with that. I do know you can't "mod" the plastic if it would be needed. The CZ would be a better option for a Fireball based round, IMHO, as it would need no mods to work other than a barrel swap. The L461 is also completely compatible.

 

[stonecreek]

Howa produced the "Golden Bear" many years ago which was a near exact Sako knock-off; and their Model 1500 shares a lot of Sako traits. However, the new Mini Howa, while it may have a little stolen Sako DNA way back in its bloodline, was designed for the current market of younger shooters whose mantra is "tactical", whatever that means. Unfortunately, the Mini Howa, while a great idea, is a poor choice for building a conventional sporting rifle on.

The CZ 527 is a fine action with three unfortunate drawbacks: (1) Its backward-operating unsafe safety; (2) Its thick bolt handle root which prevents low scope mounting; and (3) Its protruding single-stack magazine.

If you can't find an L461, or even an L46, to build your Fireball-based rifle on you might look for a Mini Mark X. It is not finished nearly as well as a Sako, but its design is sound and any 98 Mauser trigger will fit it (I have a genuine Sako trigger on mine.) Mine is in .221 Fireball without any modifications, so the action will work fine with the .17 Fireball, also.

Just one caution as to caliber: The 17's can be temperamental. I've found the .20's to be an excellent compromise between the .224" bore and the .172" bore. The .20 Vartarg I have on a Sako L461 is a fine little shooter.

 

[Chris Anderson]

The CZ would be a better option for a Fireball based round, IMHO, as it would need no mods to work other than a barrel swap. The L461 is also completely compatible.

Yeah I've been watching for a CZ 527 in 221 Fireball, but I haven't found one yet.

 

[AWS]

I have a Mini Howa HB 6.5 Grendel in a Boyds thumb hole stock, strictly a target rifle, maybe some longer range varmints.
With modified mag.

I also have a Full stock 222 R sako that is one of my favorite coyote guns.

The Howa is solid and accurate, the trigger guard was a terrible idea, it should have had at least metal inserts for the action screws, I need to change it out to a DIP guard.

The Sako is a much nicer action although 3-4 times the cost.

I like the CZ action, the safety is of little consequences to me as I have rifles and shotguns with safeties all over the place. They do make flush mags for the CZ and Calhoun Bullets make modified bolt handles. I do like the set trigger on the CZ, I have them on my combo guns and drillings. They did make a 221FB for awhile. One of my hunting partners has a 17 Hornet CZ that he uses for cats and fox.

Love the Mini Mauser, I thought it would make a great little 22LBC/Grendel if I could find one of the 7.62x39 ones fairly reasonable.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Unfortunately, the Mini Howa, while a great idea, is a poor choice for building a conventional sporting rifle on.
The CZ 527 is a fine action with three unfortunate drawbacks:

(1) Its backward-operating unsafe safety

Yeah that one has me hesitating.

(2) Its thick bolt handle root which prevents low scope mounting;

James Calhoon does a bolt handle root modification for $58.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/pricelist.php

but I'm not sure how much that lowers the bolt.

((3) Its protruding single-stack magazine.

That's the feature that's really holding me back. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that magazine is UGLY. Sad because it's a cute little rifle. RBV Precision does a $95 magazine conversion that looks much better:

http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/cz-527-rifle-magazine-conversion.html

but the shortened mag is limited to two rounds (the standard five round mag still works). What I would really like is a conversion that results in a staggered magazine with a hinged BDL style floor plate.

Could you adapt a Model 7 or L461 floor plate to the CZ? They both have hinged floor plates but I don't have a specimen of any of those rifles to measure the bolt spacing.

If you can't find an L461, or even an L46, to build your Fireball-based rifle on you might look for a Mini Mark X

In a couple of days I'll have a L461 so I'm good on that front. I'm just looking for a spare so I have the hard to find part if I get a wild hair for another small caliber. On that subject what would be a good price for a Sako AI or AII3 in good working condition? I think those are the two actions I'd like to have on the shelf for potential new rifles.

Just one caution as to caliber: The 17's can be temperamental.

Yeah I know. My brother in law had a 17 Remington and he was always cleaning it or fiddling with it. Not for me.

I've found the .20's to be an excellent compromise between the .224" bore and the .172" bore. The .20 Vartarg I have on a Sako L461 is a fine little shooter.

In my research I've seen LOTS of shooters that LOVE their .20's especially the .20VT. Maybe I could warm up to a .20VT but I've shot 222 mag, 223 and 22-250 since I was a kid so .20 caliber seems a little weird.

I've read that the pros are accuracy, very minimal recoil, almost ideal efficiency of cartridge to bore ratio. What are the cons? Making and trimming cases, enough good bullets? Is the equipment for a .20 caliber hard to find or expensive?

Thanks for your willingness to share your considerable knowledge.
Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

AWS,

Isn't there supposed to be snow behind that coyote?

Does it get cold enough there for the fir to be prime?

I do like the set trigger on the CZ, I have them on my combo guns and drillings.

The set trigger interests me also. I've never owned one but lots of posters say it really helps them to shoot accurately. I'll have to look around and see what's available for the L461.

Thanks
Chris

 

[kevinlg]

Stone........now don't go bad-mouthing my 17's.

IMHO.........it would be tough to improve on the L461.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

CZ changed their bolt handle a couple years ago to allow better scope bell clearance, so the James Calhoon bolt is unnecessary. I've shot about every varmint round from 220 Swift to 22 Hornet over the years & the 20 Vartarg is the sweetest one of all, IMHO. I also have a James Calhoon CZ 527 conversion in 19 Hornet that I won't give up till I die. Calhoon also offers the 19 Badger, which is a ballistic twin to the Vartarg. Calhoon's 19 cal bullets are .198", so they are only .oo6" smaller than 20 cal bullets. He does quality work, provides great bullets, loaded ammo, brass, dies & support for his products. His conversion includes pillar bedding & a trigger job. You will be hard pressed to end up with a better rifle at a better price than he can do for you. I visited him in Havre about three years ago and left my CZ with him for conversion to 19 Hornet. Couldn't meet a nicer guy. Just food for thought.

 

[AWS]

Central WA in late Jan. no snow. Was in CO in Dec and killed one out on the eastern plains, no snow. All nicely furred coyotes. Snow is not a requirement for prime fur. Primeness is determined buy time of the year(available sunlight). As you go from south to north the quality of fur improves. Coyotes killed along the northern tier of states will be longer and thicker (plus a larger body size) than those along the southern tier of states. Some southern coyotes can be very nice though, I use them for home sewing projects.

A nicely furred AZ Feb coyote 12 miles north of the Mexican border,

Another nicely furred Jan coyote 75 miles south of the Canadian border this coyote was killed just 2 miles from the one with the Sako at the same time of the year just a different year.

It sounds like you are describing a Mini Mauser to the "T", find one with a .378 bolt face or a L-461 with box mag and floor plate like shown.

I shoot a 20 Practical, 223 necked to 20 cal, no fire forming , just run them through a 223 FL Bushing die with 20 cal bushing and expander ball trim load and shoot, a very Practical wildcat. No custom dies to buy, no difficult case forming, no fireforming and an endless supply of brass from cheap mil stuff to Lapua. Load it down a little if you want 20 Vartag velocities, loaded up it nearly matches 204 Ruger velocities and will feed through anything that was intended for the 223.

 

[stonecreek]

I like the CZ action, the safety is of little consequences to me as I have rifles and shotguns with safeties all over the place.

Yes, safeties may be located on the tang, on the trigger guard, left wing, right wing, sliding RH thumb, or even rolling levers like the Sako L46 and L57. But with ALL of them, forward is "fire" and backward is "safe". It is the opposite with the CZ, which is what makes it so potentially dangerous. Why CZ would build a rifle with a safety that works the opposite to every other rifle in the known universe is as unfathomable as why they have not been inundated with lawsuits.

I own a Brno ZKW 465 Hornet, which is the precursor to the CZ 527. It also has the backward-operating safety. It is an incredibly accurate little rifle with a magnificent double-set trigger, however, I NEVER use the safety -- when a round is in the chamber I keep the bolt open until ready to shoot. And I never allow anyone else to shoot it until I've cautioned them not to use the safety, either.

 

[AWS]

From my understanding the direction of the safety on a CZ/BRNO is a throw back to hammer guns, you pull back on the hammer to fire, you pull back on the safety to fire.

Not all of them move forward, Mauser's both military and sporting rifles, Ariskas, Savage 19 and 23, most pump and semi auto shotguns, those are just the ones I can think of quickly. it is a pretty long list of rifles and shotguns that the safety does not move forward to disengage. Savage 99's you pull back on the safety to fire.

I go from single trigger shotguns to double trigger shotguns pretty seamlessly, combo guns where the front trigger is the rifle to ones where the real trigger is the rifle. Hammer guns to hammerless. It isn't that difficult to tell yourself at the start of the day what you are shooting and how it operates.

 

[stonecreek]

Not all of them move forward, Mauser's both military and sporting rifles, Ariskas, Savage 19 and 23, most pump and semi auto shotguns, those are just the ones I can think of quickly. it is a pretty long list of rifles and shotguns that the safety does not move forward to disengage. Savage 99's you pull back on the safety to fire.

I don't intend to be argumentative, but the examples you cite mostly aren't relevant: The Mauser wing safeties move up and down (just as the early Sako L46's), not forward/backward. So does the Savage Model 23 (I have one of those), and I believe the Model 19. Pump and semi-auto shotguns typically have buttons in the trigger guard which move side-to-side. But pump and autos which use a tang safety always use the forward position as "fire". The older Savage 99's do have a lever lock which also serves as a safety which moves forward to lock the lever, thus backward is "fire". However, when Savage modernized the 99 they moved the safety to the tang where forward is "fire" and backward is "safe". "Modernization" is what CZ desperately needs to do with its 527 as it has already done with actions for its longer cartridges.

If there is an example of any sliding or rolling RH thumb safety on any firearm other than the Brno/CZ on which forward is "safe", then I am at a loss to find it.

 

[AWS]

What I'm trying to say is there are so many different safeties out there and some of us go from one to another with no problems that just a change of direction would be of little consequence which seems to be the fact as there aren't a deluge of lawsuits against CZ and they sell a lot of those 527's.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

My Ithaca 37's safety is in the trigger guard & moves right to left, my Mossberg pump's is on the rear of the receiver, my SKB's is on the tang, my o3-A3's is a wing type that moves up & down, my L461 is on the right side over the top of the stock & moves straight back & forth, my L46's is on the rear of the bolt & is a rocker lever, my Marlin lever is a half cock of the hammer, & the list goes on & on when it comes to safeties, their location, & their operational differences. If someone is so incompetent they can't properly operate the safety on a CZ, then maybe they shouldn't be operating ANY firearm. I find the safety on the CZ to be positioned nicely, easy to work with the gun in the shooting position, with a positive feel. What direction it moves from safe to unsafe is irrelevant to me. Besides, the only "real" safety is the brain of the person holding the weapon.

 

[stonecreek]

Besides, the only "real" safety is the brain of the person holding the weapon.

Quite true.

However, brains get conditioned to react a certain way. Most of us from the U.S. would find some difficulty driving in Britain or Japan or Australia (on the left side of the road). In London, tourists so often inadvertently step in front of oncoming traffic that they paint "Look Right" on the crosswalks, simply because four-fifths of the world has been conditioned to look left as they step into the street. Similarly, those of us who have been shooting rifles for the last 50 years with safeties that work forward-backward are more subject to making a mistake when the safety is slid backward but the gun is on "fire". "Muscle memory" they call it, and it's a real thing.

There's no mechanical reason that putting the clutch on the right and the brake on the left wouldn't work just fine except that having only one make of car that is set up that way would probably cause some traffic mishaps. Hot water faucet left, cold water right. Clockwise tightens, counterclockwise loosens. Red on top, yellow in the middle, green on bottom. Black hot, white neutral. 12's red, 20's yellow. These are all conventions that we follow, mostly adopted for the sake of safety.

The same is true of the convention of sliding gun safeties, and it's my genuine feeling that the convention is there for a very good reason and it's a poor idea to ignore it. If CZ can trim their bolt handle down they can also make their safety work like that of everyone else.

With all of that said, we all recognize that no wise shooter depends on a gun's safety to make it "safe". The safety is simply a mechanism that a safe shooter automatically keeps engages until time to make the actual shot; and a safe shooter recognizes that it is only an extra added precaution to help prevent an unwanted discharge. But the fact that engaging the safety is an automatic action of a good shooter means that the shooter shouldn't be tasked with having to consciously think whether the safety on a particular rifle should be pushed forward or backward, just like a driver shouldn't have to think about which pedal is the clutch and which is the brake.

 

[AWS]

In some cities the lights are horizontal and the left turn arrow is on the right side of the red, I still know when to turn left. The reason the clutch peddle is on the left is you can't operate the gas and clutch at the same time but you can the gas and brake. Different machinery I've operated over the year some you push forward to engage the clutch others you pull back on the handle to engage the clutch, some even have two clutches one you use your foot like car and the other you pull with your hand. Stick shift patterns have the reverse in a number of different locations. Some trucks I've driven have one shift lever, some have one and button you have to pull to find more gears and some have two different shift levers with multiples of different shift patterns that you have to use both at the same time and double clutch because they are not synchronize gear boxes.

You box yourself into a very narrow box thinking like that everything should be the same, maybe one political party, one religion, one color of skin, no Semi-autos, no sxs's because they are different than you like.

 

[Chris Anderson]

CZ changed their bolt handle a couple years ago to allow better scope bell clearance, so the James Calhoon bolt is unnecessary.

Interesting. Do you know about when they started doing that? I've never seen any reference to that in the descriptions on the auction sites but low scope mounting would be a requirement if I bought a CZ. I see that the CZ factory has been making rifles with low bolt handles or your can buy the low style for your existing rifle They are also making their rifles with 3 round flush mounted (almost) magazines. You can also buy the trigger guard and mag to convert the older rifles. I could upgrade but it would be nice to avoid the extra expense and buy one that already has the low bolt and the flush mag to start with.

I'm surprised and impressed at how responsive CZ is to customer feedback.

It looks like this guy converted his magazine years ago. It's not hinged but it looks real slick.

I visited him in Havre about three years ago

I really like traveling in Montana but Havre is one place I've never been. I'll have to put that on the travel bucket list.

Thanks
Chris

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Calhoon also offers what he calls his "Hunker Down"(or something like that) scope mounts to bring the scope lower. If you buy a used one with the old style bolt it's a simple fix. If you have a bench grinder it takes about 10 minutes, then a reblue or you can get Calhoon's bolt handle. He swaps yours out. He also makes a single shot follower that fits flush. Works great at the range or shooting PD's where you pick your brass out of the receiver anyway. Ain't no stinkin' plastic in the CZ. They are a solid, accurate platform & ideal for the small cal wildcat builds. Depends on if personal aesthetic preferences are more important to you than performance. Every 527 I've been around shot every bit as good as any Sako I've had for less money. If you get to Havre, go just a little south to the Bear Paws. Gorgeous spot.

 

[AWS]

Havre is fun, I went to a wedding there in the late 1970, spent a few years hunting birds near Winnett and a few more hunting the Scobey, Westby, Medicine Lake triangle. I was baking scratch lemon meringue pies for the farmers that let us hunt their land. The folks in Westby tried to talk me into reopening the café. The café in Winnett is renowned for there pies so one year I took my wife on a cross country trip driving all the state highways and took 200 across the state and told her how good the pies in the café were there, wouldn't you know it the day we stopped the baker was in the hospital.