Got questions about the Factory Records Services? Ask here!

[L61R]

All!

This is the forum for asking anything you would like to know about the new Factory Records Services.

Please read the Q´s & A´s above before you do just to avoid asking the same questions too many times.
We will answer all questions as soon as we can and will compile the questions asked here and post them in the Q´s & A´s on a regular basis.

Jim aka L61R

 

[emcon5]

Can you elaborate on what information is available for the Sako reworked Mosin Nagant M39 and M28-30 military rifles? An example would be great.

Thanks,

 

[stonecreek]

Great question!

If you'll click on the link below you can see a full double ledger page of Mosin records from 1941. I just picked this one out randomly. We haven't worked much with these and there is a lot of interpretation yet to be done, but generally the record appears to show the date the rifle came in, the date it was inspected for needed work, and under the column labeled "Korjaus" ("corrections") are the handwritten notes as to what was to be done to the rifle (replace barrel, repair stock, or whatever.) The handwritten notes are of course in Finnish and are difficult to read, but we've run a few of them through an online translator and determined what some of them call for. The date column on the RH side appears to be when the rifle was either shipped or was placed in inventory available for shipment.

As I say, we haven't worked much with the Mosin records and my description above may not be totally accurate, but you can see for yourself what the record looks like and are welcome to help translate any of the language and notes. Perhaps some of our members who are speakers of Finnish can assist in this task?

 

[emcon5]

Hmm, interesting. So the headers are Serial number, the second column header is abbreviated, so difficult to translate, but a date (received maybe?), followed by, according to Google:
tarkastettu=Checked
Tukki=log
Vastaanotto tarkastus=incoming inspection
Minne lahetetty= Where Posted
Hu mautuksin=annotated

I wonder what the "Where Posted" corresponds to? They are all the same and no numbers, so it seems unlikely that it would be an individual unit, maybe the Finnish 1941 equivalent of Ministry of Defence? I am having a hard time reading the cursive script. I guess it could also be a name, but that seems odd if the translation is correct.

 

[stonecreek]

Yeah, you can go crosseyed trying to decipher that old cursive script. On the commercial records we've gone through many pages to find the same note in different handwriting to help determine exactly what the word is, which has been very effective, so we have all but a few of the more obscure notes in the commercial records translated. However, some notes are abbreviations which a native speaker might quickly interpret, but which Google Translate or other programs can't. So we're happy for anyone with a working knowledge of Finnish to jump in and offer his/her assistance.

There is a growing cadre of Sako Mosin collectors, and I would think that these old records would be of huge interest to them.

 

[Borgbacken]

If there are any questions concerning translation, I'm more than happy to help. I am a native Finnish speaker and my english is probably more than satisfactory.

 

[stonecreek]

Thanks for your kind offer, Borgbacken! I've started a "private conversation" with you on details.

 

[jack brumley]

Just received the "Letter of Authentication" and was extremely happy with it, then, I looked at it closer and my name was spelled wrong on it. How would I go about having it re-issued without ordering another one for $40? Is there a direct email address for the issuer? Tha you.

 

[vigo]

I am concerned about your factory records letters. I have numerous ones from Marlin, Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and Browning. These Sako letters do not appear to be from the factory or from somewhere similar to the Cody Museum. Also, these letters are very limited as far as model and serial number range. It also appears that the limitations are based on very old SCC information and hang-tag data. Certainly not the same as Cody Museum letters for Marlin, Colt and Winchester, as well as S&W and Browning.

 

[stonecreek]

I am concerned about your factory records letters. I have numerous ones from Marlin, Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and Browning. These Sako letters do not appear to be from the factory or from somewhere similar to the Cody Museum. Also, these letters are very limited as far as model and serial number range. It also appears that the limitations are based on very old SCC information and hang-tag data. Certainly not the same as Cody Museum letters for Marlin, Colt and Winchester, as well as S&W and Browning.

The information in the Letters of Authentication offered by the Club comes directly from the original factory records of Sako. It contains the exact information contained in those records, nothing more and nothing less. A copy of the actual inspection ledger and the shipping ledger comes with the LoA -- something that, to my knowledge, is not provided by Colt, Winchester, etc. In other words, no one has to take the Club's word for it, they can see the original information right there in the ledger for themselves. The Letter is simply a concise, visually attractive, and displayable statement of the information reflected in the record. The records themselves back up the Letter. The club will not issue a letter unless a particular rifle is clearly identified in both the inspection record and the shipping record. If a person just wants copies of the factory information on a particular Sako and does not desire a letter, then they can order only that.

"Also, these letters are very limited as far as model and serial number range."

The Club only has the factory records on inspections up to about 1972. Therefore the Club obviously offers no Letter of Authentication for Sakos where we do not possess the records.

"It also appears that the limitations are based on very old SCC information and hang-tag data"

Again, all information comes from microfiche of the original Sako Factory record ledger books. Although we have cross-checked numerous hang tags to verify their agreement with the ledgers, we do not use any hang tag information -- only information taken directly from the factory records.

These records were provided to the Sako Collectors Club by Mims Reed, the president of the earlier Sako Collectors Association, and are used with his permission. Mr. Reed obtained them in microfiche form on a visit to the factory in Finland in the 1980's. After the Club paid a sizable cost to have the microfiche digitized, the original microfiche was returned to Mr. Reed, who plans to donate the microfiche to the museum at Cody. If the museum should one day choose to offer the same or similar records services as the Sako Collectors Club currently offers that would be great and would relieve the Club of the burden of either paying someone to respond to records requests or relying on volunteers to respond to those requests.

I hope this helps you understand the origin and nature of the Sako Collectors Club's efforts to make genuine, reliable, and verifiable factory information available to its members about the Sakos in their collections.

 

[enotstehw]

Virgo
As a Sako collector since 1971, I understand the service that L61R is promoting.
However I do not stand behind the service from a legal standpoint.
From a legal standpoint . . . only the factory has the legal power to produce a document that verifies information on the product that they produce.

If a gun collector purchases a Colt from a private individual, that claims the item is tamper proof and 100% factory item. And the purchaser later find out the gun was a fraud, copy or in any way not legitimate. The purchaser may have recourse through the court system . . . if the seller does not refund the buyers cash, buy producing information from Colt that proves the item was a copy or a fraud.

In the above example the certification letter from L61R would not hold any weight in our court system. In other words the buyer would not stand a chance to get his money back via the court system, by producing a document from the collectors club as evidence.

 

[stonecreek]

Enotstew: I'm afraid that you misconstrue what any factory letter is intended for and can do for you, legally or otherwise. A letter from Colt, Winchester, or the Sako Collectors Club only tells you the factory history of a gun of the particular model and serial number you inquire about. It does not and cannot verify the authenticity (or lack thereof) of a gun which bears that serial number (which could be a copy or a counterfeit). Nothing other than an in-person inspection can verify the authenticity of a particular piece.

If you ask Smith & Wesson for a factory letter for a Model 29, SN XYZ, the only thing they can tell you is the information in their records for SN XYZ, not whether the gun you have in your hands is actually the genuine and original Model 29 SN XYZ which they shipped and not a counterfeit. Exactly the same is true of the Letters which the Sako Collectors Club offers to its members.

Now, this doesn't mean that the factory records are not useful for helping verify the originality of a Sako. We've had members send requests in for information on Sakos they were considering purchasing, but may have had questions about. For instance, one person was being told that an L57 was all original and that the .250 Savage barrel on it was factory (which would have made it quite unique). He sent in his order and our researcher responded that the L57 with SN XYZZ was shown in both the inspection records and shipping records as a .243. This is an extreme example, but it allowed our SCC member to avoid purchasing a non-original rifle when he wanted it only if it was original. We've also found instances of standard rifles being placed in Deluxe stocks and attempted to pass off as genuine Deluxes, and rifles shipped to Garcia as being advertised as "pre-Garcia".

I think that everyone will agree that the availability of the Sako factory records serves a valuable and useful purpose for those of us who have an interest in Sako rifles.

 

[vigo]

The information in the Letters of Authentication offered by the Club comes directly from the original factory records of Sako. It contains the exact information contained in those records, nothing more and nothing less. A copy of the actual inspection ledger and the shipping ledger comes with the LoA -- something that, to my knowledge, is not provided by Colt, Winchester, etc. In other words, no one has to take the Club's word for it, they can see the original information right there in the ledger for themselves. The Letter is simply a concise, visually attractive, and displayable statement of the information reflected in the record. The records themselves back up the Letter. The club will not issue a letter unless a particular rifle is clearly identified in both the inspection record and the shipping record. If a person just wants copies of the factory information on a particular Sako and does not desire a letter, then they can order only that.

"Also, these letters are very limited as far as model and serial number range."

The Club only has the factory records on inspections up to about 1972. Therefore the Club obviously offers no Letter of Authentication for Sakos where we do not possess the records.

"It also appears that the limitations are based on very old SCC information and hang-tag data"

Again, all information comes from microfiche of the original Sako Factory record ledger books. Although we have cross-checked numerous hang tags to verify their agreement with the ledgers, we do not use any hang tag information -- only information taken directly from the factory records.

These records were provided to the Sako Collectors Club by Mims Reed, the president of the earlier Sako Collectors Association, and are used with his permission. Mr. Reed obtained them in microfiche form on a visit to the factory in Finland in the 1980's. After the Club paid a sizable cost to have the microfiche digitized, the original microfiche was returned to Mr. Reed, who plans to donate the microfiche to the museum at Cody. If the museum should one day choose to offer the same or similar records services as the Sako Collectors Club currently offers that would be great and would relieve the Club of the burden of either paying someone to respond to records requests or relying on volunteers to respond to those requests.

I hope this helps you understand the origin and nature of the Sako Collectors Club's efforts to make genuine, reliable, and verifiable factory information available to its members about the Sakos in their collections.

The information in the Letters of Authentication offered by the Club comes directly from the original factory records of Sako. It contains the exact information contained in those records, nothing more and nothing less. A copy of the actual inspection ledger and the shipping ledger comes with the LoA -- something that, to my knowledge, is not provided by Colt, Winchester, etc. In other words, no one has to take the Club's word for it, they can see the original information right there in the ledger for themselves. The Letter is simply a concise, visually attractive, and displayable statement of the information reflected in the record. The records themselves back up the Letter. The club will not issue a letter unless a particular rifle is clearly identified in both the inspection record and the shipping record. If a person just wants copies of the factory information on a particular Sako and does not desire a letter, then they can order only that.

"Also, these letters are very limited as far as model and serial number range."

The Club only has the factory records on inspections up to about 1972. Therefore the Club obviously offers no Letter of Authentication for Sakos where we do not possess the records.

"It also appears that the limitations are based on very old SCC information and hang-tag data"

Again, all information comes from microfiche of the original Sako Factory record ledger books. Although we have cross-checked numerous hang tags to verify their agreement with the ledgers, we do not use any hang tag information -- only information taken directly from the factory records.

These records were provided to the Sako Collectors Club by Mims Reed, the president of the earlier Sako Collectors Association, and are used with his permission. Mr. Reed obtained them in microfiche form on a visit to the factory in Finland in the 1980's. After the Club paid a sizable cost to have the microfiche digitized, the original microfiche was returned to Mr. Reed, who plans to donate the microfiche to the museum at Cody. If the museum should one day choose to offer the same or similar records services as the Sako Collectors Club currently offers that would be great and would relieve the Club of the burden of either paying someone to respond to records requests or relying on volunteers to respond to those requests.

I hope this helps you understand the origin and nature of the Sako Collectors Club's efforts to make genuine, reliable, and verifiable factory information available to its members about the Sakos in their collections.

 

[vigo]

Thanks Stonecreek, I was not aware of the records obtained from Sako. For a letter based on the serial numbers 1-48,900 for the L61R can I assume these are F.I. period rifles? My L61R's (6) are all 60XXX range rifles, three with 1971 Hang tags, 4 Garcia stamped 2 unstamped bring-backs. Also, are the available records for the listed firearms all F.I. period firearms? I think this a great service if your Sako is within the range available. Carl

 

[jack brumley]

vigo, you might want to order the $40 value from SCC for one of those rifles. If all 6 of your L61R's are in the 60XXX serial# range, one, two, several or maybe even all of them might be on the copy of the same original SAKO ledger. Or, maybe SCC Factory Records Service can cut you a deal on all 6 rifles. Without this service, I would have never been able to pin down the details of my L61R Coltsman Deluxe/Custom, though, there will always be questions about the Leupold scope and Colt engraving on the floor plate and trigger guard. Not sure is SAKO added these or if Colt did these adds. Good luck to ya'.

 

[stonecreek]

Thanks Stonecreek, I was not aware of the records obtained from Sako. For a letter based on the serial numbers 1-48,900 for the L61R can I assume these are F.I. period rifles? My L61R's (6) are all 60XXX range rifles, three with 1971 Hang tags, 4 Garcia stamped 2 unstamped bring-backs. Also, are the available records for the listed firearms all F.I. period firearms? I think this a great service if your Sako is within the range available. Carl

If a rifle is not within the serial number range listed then we don't have the records on it. That would mean that your L61R's in the 60,000 range aren't in the inspection records, unfortunately.

We don't necessarily have records on all of the F.I. imports because Sako, for reasons known only to them, skipped forward and used some serial numbers above 48,000 for some L61R rifles produced in 1971 and shipped to F.I. And even within the serial number ranges listed there are "blank" serial numbers which had not be used at the time the records were copied. We've had a few requests for information on rifles that are within the listed serial number range which we could not fulfill simply because there was no rifle listed by that particular serial number (meaning it was produced sometime after the records were copied to microfiche.) Of course, when the information on a rifle is not available we refund the money which came with the order.

 

[enotstehw]

The factory records are incomplete and not accurate . . I requested information on a Sako that I have in my possession. The factory records listed the gun as not shipped.
And L61R refunded my money. I did not request a refund. I wanted a copy of the page that my gun was on for my information. And I did not get it.

 

[stonecreek]

The factory records are incomplete and not accurate . . I requested information on a Sako that I have in my possession. The factory records listed the gun as not shipped.
And L61R refunded my money. I did not request a refund. I wanted a copy of the page that my gun was on for my information. And I did not get it.

The records are photocopies of what the factory has and are as accurate as the factory made them originally. Like anything made by humans, they are subject to contemporaneous human errors. For instance, the fact that many serial numbers are shared by two rifles of the same model and caliber made many years apart illustrates that there was human error in double-assigning those numbers. But the record of those numbers is accurate.

We assume that people asking for records on a rifle don't want to pay if the rifle is not listed in the records, which is why we immediately refund their money when this occurs. However, we would be glad to furnish you the page from the inspection records showing the blank beside the serial number of your rifle. Simply submit another request and make a note on it that you would like a copy of the ledger page of the inspection records for that serial number.

Shipping records are not organized by serial number, so it is not practical to locate a rifle in the shipping records if it is not listed in the inspection records.

 

[enotstehw]

Let me rephrase this for clarity . . . "the factory records the Collectors Club have in their possession are not complete and therefore not accurate."

The action of photo copying of records opens the doors for a multitude of errors.

Thousands of pages copied, increases the odds for omission and errors.
Pages of factory information can become lost or never even be copied.

Anyone that has worked in a factory knows . . . what happens on a daily basis . . . an inspector fills out his paper work and then send it to the office . . . where information is transferred by hand . . . maybe days later by a different individual that cares nothing for balancing or double checking data.

A fellow collector pruchased a 218 BEE and requested information from the Club . . . the club data listed the gun as a 22 Hornet and not a 218 BEE.

I have a . . . New In The Box Sako Deluxe 6 PPP . . . the box label lists the gun with a Lacquer finish . . . when in fact . . . the gun is oil finish. The serial number on the box matches the serial number on the receiver. These and many other data mistakes happen multiple times every day at factories.

In my over forty years of collecting . . . I've seen many, many errors in data compilation and transfer, and to base a decision to purchase a gun or not by using only the data on the photocopied pages that Mims Reed had in his possession could be a blunder the collector may regret. The bargain hunter on the other hand . . . will never realize the difference.

 

[vigo]

Hello,

While I believe any documentation is better than none at all, especially when dealing with Sako's, I have mixed feelings about how the Factory Records are reliable, and the Importers catalogs are unreliable. If member "enotstehw" is correct about the mistakes, and Stonecreek defends the mistakes as "human errors", I find it hard to understand that the catalog information is less accurate than the factory records. Of course the catalogs and price lists cannot tell you, the "exact" age of your Sako, but they can get you fairly close, based on the models imported and changes from year to year. The lack of Sako to maintain a specific, accurate account of what it produced cannot be changed. Aside from the Hang-tag data base, the new factory records, and the catalogs and price lists, what other information is available? None. If more detailed information was available, It would have surfaced by now, minus the Kalevi Huovinen book, "Sako, 1921-1971". I believe that all sources, as limited as one may think each may be, should be embraced for what it is; that being the best available information to get someone as close as possible to knowing about their Sako. What is a shame is that the import companies obviously did not care about tracking a Sako once it left their import facility to a distributor/gun shop. I take that back, in that they may have, yet there are no importers records, as far as I know, tracking a Sako to it's final destination for sale. Yea, foreign firearm, I get it. That in itself is the dilemma. The trail ends at F.I., Garcia and Stoeger facilities. Just thought about this. Do the Factory records reveal which U.S. military base/gun-club a Sako went to? No import stamp on military base purchased Sako's, so what was the shipping process/importation for those firearms shipped from Finland to a U.S. military installation? AAFES (Army Air Force Exchange Service), contract? Carl.