Early vs. late L-series Barrel Diameters

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by icebear, May 9, 2020.

  1. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    It is frequently mentioned that the earlier L61R and L579 (and the L461 as well?) had lighter barrels than the later versions. However, I haven't seen actual dimensions posted. Is there a database of barrel contours? If not, it might be useful to compile one. That would be of great help, for instance, to anyone who is trying to find a stock to match a barreled action.

    I'll start it off with one data point. Early L61R, s/n in the 9000 range, .300 H&H Magnum. Measures 0.71" (18.1 mm) at the front of the stock and 0.6" (15.2 mm) at the muzzle.

    If several of us mike our barrels, we should be able to get a pretty good handle on selecting a stock to fit a given barreled action. I'm not aware of barrel variations in the L46 rifles, but if there were, that would be good to know as well.

     

  2. Tomball

    Tomball Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    20
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    Dimensions
    L46 three rifles 222,22 hornet and 218. All 1950 plus or minus a year. Muzzles/ end of wood .570”/.650”, .550”/.650”and .570”/.660”

    L579 243s 1964 , 1970 and 1971. .585”/.685”, .640”/.750” and same.

    L61R 30-06 .650”/770” 1970 approx
    L61R 25-06 .640”/.760” 1970 approx

    More as spring cleaning progresses.
     
  3. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

    Messages:
    6,910
    Likes Received:
    923
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    I've found the muzzles on early L61R's to be right around .600", and later ones to be about .650", much like Tomball's figures. Sometimes the outside of the barrel right at the muzzle has a bit of a chamfer on it which makes precisely measuring it difficult, but these figures are pretty close.

    Coupled with the heavier stocks of the later models there is usually about a one-pound difference in weight for the L61R; probably a little less difference in the smaller L579 and L461.
     
  4. douglastwo

    douglastwo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    203
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    Here's dimensions for three Pre72 L61's

    Caliber/Made Muzzle @ 26" At 24.4" At Front of action
    264/1963 0.580" 0.600" 1.150"
    270/1966 n/a 0.600" 1.150"
    25-06/1971 n/a 0.645" 1.160"

    I believe Sako had 2 barrel contours for the L61. The early pencil barrel contour made from introduction of the L61 until about late 1968. I believe that the very early 26" pencil barrel has a 0.580" muzzle at 26" because taper just continues to get thinner from the 0.600" it measures at the muzzle on the 24.4" barrel rifles. I think it was 1968 that they decided to beef up the stock and barrel. The 25-06 above has the heavier stock and barrel. The catalogs show the muzzle to be 0.650" but for some reason my 25-06 measures 0.645" at muzzle. I also believe Sako produced the L61 stocks in three different weights. From introduction of the L61 until about 1963 or so, the stocks are very trim and skinny especially in the grip. Beginning about 1964, Sako beefed up the stocks very slightly (noticeable) in the grip mostly. Then in 1968, Sako beefed the stocks up a lot. I've attached a photo trying to show one other difference between the early and late barrels. but my photo skills are poor and you have to look close to see what I'm talking about. The step down on the early rifles begins about 1/2" from the action as noticed on the 270. The 25-06 is a good example of where the step down begins on the rifles made from 1968/69 on. Beginning in 68/69. the barrel has no taper in the first 2" or so of the action. Thus the step down ends about 1" to 1.5" closer to the muzzle. It's the step down area that gives the most trouble with replacement stocks. Ihe blue dots crudely mark the beginning and end of the step downs.

    Barrel Contours L61 early vs late.JPG
     
    northernlights and stonecreek like this.
  5. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

    Messages:
    6,910
    Likes Received:
    923
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    When looking at photos of L61R Sakos I always look for the open-ended crossbolt nut (LH side of the stock) as an indicator as to the stock being the early (slimmer) rather than the later (heavier). As with virtually all Sako features, this is not always consistent because of Sako's propensity to utilize "obsolete" components even after a changeover had been made. Also, rifles with the "s"-shaped floorplate release usually have the slimmer stock.

    I compared the weights of an "early" (pre-1968) .300 Winchester with a "late" ("pre-Garcia but post-1968) .338. They are equipped slightly differently so the weights could not be directly compared, but after accounting for the different scopes, mounts, and slings the later rifle was about 14 oz heavier.
     
  6. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    An interesting point. I'd never paid much attention, but sure enough, my four-digit .300 H&H L61R has the open-ended crossbolt and the A-series guns all have blind nuts. Thanks for a useful visual cue - obvious once you know it.
     
  7. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

    Messages:
    6,910
    Likes Received:
    923
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    Another interesting thing about those with the open-centered crossbolt nut: The crossbolt is flat where the recoil lug of the action bears against it.

    With the later solid center nuts the crossbolt is round so that the flat recoil lug bears against the crossbolt only on one point at the radius. At least all I've looked at have this relationship, but it is possible that there are some that differ.

    I've found no consistent difference in how rifles with the two different crossbolts shoot, but I'm sure that other variables have much more impact on accuracy (if the flat vs. round crossbolt even has any effect.)
     
  8. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    I doubt very much that the shape of the crossbolt has any effect on accuracy at all. I would guess that the flat bearing surface on the early Sakos was a holdover from the Mosin-Nagant military rifles, which had that same design (and also the same open-ended nut). At some point, Sako's engineers likely decided that machining and fitting the crossbolts was an unnecessary expense and they went to the simpler, round crossbolt. This makes sense - an infantry rifle will fire many thousands of rounds and take a lot of abuse if it actually sees combat, so the wide metal to metal contact will distribute the recoil, stabilize the stock and prevent a lot of cracks. A civilian hunting rifle doesn't typically put nearly as much stress on the stock as a military rifle.

    Here are a couple of Mosin-Nagant crossbolts. The larger one at the bottom is from the m/28-76 target/sniper rifle, which has a larger stock than the regular infantry rifle.

    Mosin Crossbolts.JPG
     
  9. northernlights

    northernlights Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    18
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US New Hampshire

    Any chance you can post some pics?
     
  10. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    Of what? The crossbolts on early L-series vs. A-series?
     
  11. northernlights

    northernlights Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    18
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US New Hampshire
    Sorry....the open end vs the solid center cross bolts.
     
  12. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    Will do. Should have time to take the photos this weekend.
     
  13. icebear

    icebear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    373
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Arizona
    OK, I found a couple of photos in the archive, didn't have to shoot any new ones. First image is an AV in 9.3x62 with the blind nuts on the crossbolts. Second shot is an early L579 in .308. Click on the image to blow it up and you should see the open-ended crossbolt nut clearly. The final image is on a Finnish Mosin-Nagant, showing the same style of nut on the crossbolt.

    AV-5.JPG 308-1.JPG Cav 4a.jpg
     
    northernlights likes this.
  14. northernlights

    northernlights Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    18
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US New Hampshire
    Thanks, IceBear. I appreciate you taking the time and the follow-up pics.
     
  15. blackjack

    blackjack Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    34
    Country Flag:
    UK
    State/Region:
    UK Crest
    Hello Sako Lovers,
    Was there a slimmer HB barrel profile on Vixens & Foresters?, and if so what year would the change of taken place.
    Blackjack
     
  16. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

    Messages:
    6,910
    Likes Received:
    923
    Country Flag:
    USA
    State/Region:
    US Texas
    To my knowledge the heavy barrel contours were always approximately the same. It was only the sporters and Mannlichers which received the beefed up barrel.
     
  17. 7mmmagnum

    7mmmagnum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    2
    Country Flag:
    Australia
    State/Region:
    AU Queensland
    Did the Sako Fiberclass Carbines have the same barrel contour as the full length barrels?
     

Share This Page

This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Okay More information