Did Sako ever manufacture a Finnbear in 270 WBY, 7mm WBY, or 300 WBY calibers?

[mashburncs]

Did Sako ever manufacture a Finnbear in 270 WBY, 7mm WBY, or 300 WBY calibers?
I am specifically interested in the above calibers in an L61R, AIII, AIV or AV, stoeger or earlier import. If you have any knowledge on the subject calibers, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[L61R]

mashburn!
IxB4ve only seen the .300Wby listed with AV actions and L691 actions in catalogs from the Stoeger era. So this is the Hunter designation. Not Finnbear.
In the 1996 Stoeger pricelist they introduce the .270, 7mm and .340 Wby as NEW (Hunter and TRG-S) along with 7 STW(TRG-S). The .300Wby is also there of course. (Hunter and TRG-S)
Hope this helps!
Jim

 

[mashburncs]

Jim,

I have a 300 WBY in the AV action with the deluxe stock, engraved floor plate, and bear head on the bottom of the grip, imported by Stoeger. I assumed this was a Finnbear. If I am wrong, please explain the difference between the Finnbear and the Hunter.

You have never seen or heard of a 270 WBY or 7mm WBY in an L61r, AIII, or AV action. Is this correct.

Thanks very much for your help and for sharing your knowledge.

Curtis

 

[emmerth]

The Finnbear designation was for the L61r large action. Some people still call the later actions (AIII, L691, AV, etc) Finnbears but they are not. Sako stopped labeling the Finnbear designation with L61r.

I have only seen the WBY calibers in the AV, L691, TRG-s, and the newer actions but I have never seen a factory Sako L61r Finnbear in a WBY caliber. Not saying it does not exist but I have never seeen one.

 

[mashburncs]

emmerth,

Thank you for the clarification.

Curtis

 

[L61R]

Curtis!
I second what emmerth is posting. IxB4ve seen different Wby calibers but they have all been built on AV, L691 or TRG-SxB4s.
And when it comes to the different designations, someone ought to write a book!! Sako has not made it easy for us!
Jim

 

[mashburncs]

Jim, Emmerth,

I finaly belive I understand the answers to my questions. You guys are the greatest, and this is an awesome forum.

Curtis

 

[stonecreek]

"Some people still call the later actions (AIII, L691, AV, etc) Finnbears but they are not. Sako stopped labeling the Finnbear designation with L61r."


Unless memory serves me poorly, the A-series still used the "Finnbear-Forester-Vixen" names. I've never owned anything in the suceeding L691 series, so I can't say about those. The stocks on the Deluxe models used the stylized bear's head wood inlay in the grip cap up until the Model 75 came out with its metal Sako logo inlay, I believe. Whether the action had the word "Finnbear" on it or not is another question. The term "Hunter Grade" was eventually adopted to replace "standard" grade, but a "Deluxe" has always been a "Deluxe".

 

[emmerth]

stone,

I was only stating what I was told from a long time collector and what I have seen in reference to the "Finnbear-Forester" designations.

I do have both AIII's and AII's and none are marked with the Finnbear-Forester designation. I do not have any AI's so I can not comment.

If anybody has one with this designation, please post a picture of it.

mash,

You are correct, this is a great site. I learn something new just about everyday.

 

[L61R]

Stonecreek!
There are no Finnbear-Forester-Vixen names in the Stoeger catalogs I have. Only A!, AII and AIII. I know the old names were used for a bit longer here in Europe but I guess that depended on the strong "Brand" that the Finnbear-Forester-Vixen name were. Probably was the same in the US?
The Hunter name came to life in the early 80xB4s when Sako redesigned the stocks. That name was then used for all three action lengths. And has been ever since._
As stated the Deluxes has always been Deluxes and they used the _bear head (and other) on the grip caps for quite a long while after the L61R was discontinued.
Jim

 

[deergoose]

Looks like we're looking for an AI, AII, or AIII that is stamped Vixen, Forester or Finnbear. I don't know if it exists or not, and will have to check my AIIs when time permits.

Anybody has such a thing? Now is the time to speak up......and post some pics, of course! Good topic here.

DeerGoose

 

[Guest]

I found this picture on Gunbroker, looks like a AV marked Finnbear and Hunter but also says L61r so who knows

 

[emmerth]

This is interesting. If you look at the label it is labeled both AV and L61r but the gun is clearly an AV. I wonder if the gun has the Finnbear stamped on it???

 

[L61R]

Guys!
The names where used differently depending on the markets. Sako has always called their actions L461, L579, L61R no matter what they are stamped with. For example, In the US, the Finnbear name was discontinued in 78 when the AIII came instead. Here in Scandinavia the Finnbear name lived for a while longer even if the actions were stamped AIII.
The same goes for short and medium actions too.
WexB4ve all seen "transition" guns like a L61R with shrouded bolt. The same goes for boxes, labels, manuals and other paraphernalia.

So basically Finnbear, Vixen, Hunter were model names up until 78. Then the rifles where called Standard, Sporter, Finnsport 2700 etc._
I attach a pic from a catalog issued by Sako Finland. ItxB4s from 89-90. Check the action names.
I have too little time today but I will try and add some more info on this subject.
Jim

 

[stonecreek]

Thanks for that post, Jim!

Sako exhibited a lot of schizophrenia in their names/designations. I'm sure that some of this had to do with their U.S. marketing agents.

U.S. marketers have always held the belief that even if you didn't change your product, you should at least periodically change its name, ie., "new and improved Crest toothpaste with brite-n-white", even though Crest toothpaste stayed just the same. I suspect that Stoeger (mistakenly, in my opinion) wanted to modernize names to give buyers the impression that the "old" gun they had needed to be upgraded to the "new" model. Of course, when it comes to guns most buyers are more sophisticated than that and the ones that aren't are not likely to be in the market for a gun like a Sako.

In my view, dropping the stamp "Finnbear" from the barrel did not change the L61R -- A-III -- A-V guns from Finnbears, particularly since the boxes were so labeled and the bear's head remained on the stock inlays. To me, they only stopped being "Finnbears" when the action was changed to something fundamentally different from the original L61R pattern.

By the way, I just looked at two of my L461's, both of them pre-Garcia. The .222, SN 58xxx is not stamped "Vixen" on the barrel or any other place. The .222 Mag, SN 111xxx is stamped "Vixen" on the left side of the barrel. I think that Sako must have been somewhat inconsistent in stamping its guns with their "names". My .222 failing to be stamped "Vixen" doesn't make it not a Vixen, in my opinion.

 

[L61R]

stonecreek!
No matter what you call `em!! Still the finest bolt rifles around!!

HerexB4 s 4 pics from an undated catalog issued by Sako Finland. It contains Safari and Classic Grades as well as short tang rifles with shrouded bolts (A-series). This should place the catalog to the 80-81 period. The names of the models are the old and well known Vixen, Forester and Finnbear! Plus the "sub models" Standard, Deluxe, Super Deluxe, _Heavy Barrel, Full stock, Classic and Safari!
According to Sakos Old Models page:_http://sako.fi/pdf/datatables/SakoOldmodelsNumbering.pdf the AIII was discontinued late 1981.
In the same period (80-81) Stoeger catalogs the models are called: Standard, Deluxe, Varmint, Carbine, Super Deluxe, Classic Grade and Safari Grade. A little later came the Finnsport 2700 but I guess these were stamped with AV? They are listed in the 85 Stoeger catalog but without stamp mark. I have one other catalog with the Finnsport and it was printed in 84.
There are no HunterxB4s in the Stoeger catalog from 85 but in the 86 catalog. I also have a price list from 86 where they are listed.
Then they also appear in the 85 catalog issued here in Europe. I have no catalogs between 82 and 84 so I am uncertain of the exact year when the Hunter was introduced.
BTW! My father in law has an AIII which was labeled Hunter when he bought it 83-85.
Jim

Jim

 

[mashburncs]

Guys,
Based on what I see here and what I own, I prefer to go with the less strict interpretation, of a Finnbear as any L61r, AIII, AIV, AV and L691 action.
My father had a Firearms International imported L61r Finnbear (I would say Standard) in 7mm Rem Mag, that I fell in love with. It was stolen, and I cannot remember whether it was actually marked Finnbear on the barrel. When I was a kid he bought me a new Stoeger imported .270 Win around 1980. It is an AIII, looks exactly like the classic in the above images, has the shrouded bolt, red buttpad, round forearm, oil finished stock and has both Finnbear and Classic boxes checked on the blue and white manual. I have recently purchased a couple of used Finnbears, both deluxe Stoeger imports. One is a square forearm, brown waffle buttpad, shrouded bolt, L61r in 7mm Rem Mag. The other is a round forearm, red buttpad, shrouded bolt AV in 300 WBY Mag. All three have the shrouded bolts. The L61r and AIII bolts appear identical to the eye, with knurled handle. The AV bolt appears identical, except that the handle is smooth, no knurling.
As to my original question, based on all of your shared insight, with regard to the Weatherby calibers and considering only the L61R, AIII, AV, and L691 actions I believe that the correct answer would be 300 Wby in AV and L691, and 270 Wby and 7mm Wby only in L691. This is very helpful as I would like to acquire an L691 in 270 Wby and 7mm Wby if I ever ran across one of them.
Ever since my dad brought home his Finnbear, I have had the Sako bug, and believe them to be the finest production rifles that I have ever encountered. However, I just don't like any of the rifles produced after the L691 action. I just don't like the look and feel of the ones with the three front locking lugs with Beretta on them.
Once again, my many thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject with a fellow Sako lover and new member of this great forum.
Curtis

 

[L61R]

Curtis!
I hope you can excuse me but I beg to differ!
If we call all long actions for Finnbears, then there is no way of telling when the rifle was produced. We still would have to add the markings on the recievers to be sure, right?
This is the way IxB4ve found the easiest when trying to explain the models to other non-Sako freaks!

_ Bear with me!
For US imports:
- A Finnbear is a rifle produced in the 60xB4s or 70xB4s until around 78. It has an open bolt and the action is stamped L61R
- A-series.I call the early A series for Sako AI, Sako AII or Sako AIII. These were made between 78 and 81 and the older style stock. I also ad the designations Standard, Deluxe, Varmint, Carbine(Mannlicher) or Super Deluxe whenever possible. There was also the Finnsport 2700 which was introduced around 84.
- The AV series was produced from late 81 or early 82 until 92-93 and was available in the above models.
- The Hunter A-series was introduced 85( or maybe a little earlier outside the US) and appears for the first time in the 86 catalog from Stoeger. This was just one of many different models from Sako.
- The L series came 92-93 to 97 and is very different from the A series with a loose recoil lug and other dimensions. The Finnbear designation was dropped long before these ever were produced.
All of this goes for European rifles too but I know the Finnbear/Forester/Vixen names were used in promotional items some years after the 78 transition. Then I call them AIII Finnbears or Hunter. Simple as that. My father in law has an AIII which he bought in the early to mid 80xB4s and it was called Hunter.
Then we have all the "specials" and oddities like L61R actions with closed shrouded bolts etc etc etc. These I call "transition" rifles and they were most likely made when Sako ran out of orinary parts or something like that. The same goes for promotional catalogs. I have some records of rifles that have never seen the day of light and I have seen rifles IRL never listed in any catalogs so my guess is Sako just used what they had, instead of making new parts and such.
Another thing that makes it difficult is the fact that they kept calling the actions for L61R and Finnbear but that was just the action. Not the models.
I am hoping to find some European catalogs from early 80xB4 s to further clarify exactly when the Hunter series was introduced and the Finnbear name was dropped.
And if we take a close look at the box in the pic above, they have used all the usual names. Finnbear, L61R, AV along with Hunter models and so forth!
For me, this Label says: Hunter model, marked AV, L61R/Finnbear action.
Earlier on Finnbear was a model name but after aprox 78 it became a name for the long actions, along with the L61R designation! Man I need a break now!!

I gotta stop collecting catalogs soon!!

This is MY 5cents of useless knowledge but I have found it to be an easy

_ way of keeping the different eras apart. And even if I have written about Finnbears here, the same goes for the VixenxB4s and ForesterxB4s.

Jim

 

[mashburncs]

Jim,

Thank you for the further clairification. I take no offense. I am a big fan of Sako, but I don't possess near the knowledge to be considered a freak in a good way. I think the most enlightening part of your description was the use of Finnbear to describe the long action after 78 as opposed to a model. That concept had eluded me. I had always thought that the Finnbear was referring to the long action, and not a model. Your detailed description is immensly appreciated.

Being that I own an L61r, AIII, and AV, and am interested in an L691, can you tell me the primary differences between the aforementioned actions. I cannot see any differences between the L61r, AIII and AV actions that I have, being that all of mine have the shrouded bolt. I have seen the more common unshrouded bolt as used on most L61r actions. The only difference that I can see in the bolts between my rifles, is that the L61r and AIII bolts have a knurled handle, while the AV bolt is smooth.

Thanks,

Curtis

 

[L61R]

Curtis!
Being an A-series man myself, I have not that much hands on knowledge of other models and actions.
But herexB4s some info I have collected.
The main differences between these three models are:
L61R has open shrouds, knurled handles, short rear tangs
AIII has closed shrouds, knurled handles, short rear tangs
AV has closed shrouds, smooth handles and long rear tangs
For the records! I have never actually compared actions at the same time but maybe I should!
There are other "discrepances" as well!
Early L61RxB4s (until aprox 69) have the beautiful large release mechanism for the floor plate
Early L61RxB4s have three locking lugs(until aprox 72)
Later L61RxB4S have 2 lugs
Some early AIIIxB4s have open shrouds
Some late L61RxB4s have closed shrouds
Some early AVxB4s have knurled handles
TherexB4s a multitude of other variations with stocks, barrels and actions and I guess some of the L-series Afficionados can chip in on this. Compared to some of these guys IxB4m still in kindergarten!

IxB4 m ignorant when it comes to L691 just because I havnxB4t owned one or handled very many. I see these as a "Pre Model 75" since they have the same type of trigger/safety and barrel threads.
I know the dimesions are different from the L61R, AIII and AVxB4s so you canxB4t fit an L691 action in an earlier stock and vice versa! At least not w/o a lot of work. The L691 also has the loose recoil lug as opposed to the fixed one on earlier actions.
I have probably forgotten a lot of details but these are the main points of interest to me!
I hope some others chime in as well!
Worth mentioning is the Safari AIV action which _where completely different in length, had another type of bottom metal and bolt handle. The distance between the bolts are also different(longer) than on AVxB4s. These where probably expensive to manufacture, hence the switch to AV actions on the Safari model.
Regards
Jim