Another fake from the "Gunfather"

Discussion in 'General Sako Discussions' started by stonecreek, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    I'm sorry, but I've had about all of this guy I can stand. He makes an excellent copy of Sako Deluxe stocks, which is great. But then putting a barreled action in his stock and calling it a "Deluxe" without telling potential buyers that it is a reproduction and not original is simply not the way business should be done. Here is his latest: https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...eluxe-super-rare-caliber.cfm?gun_id=101145181


    You'll note that in his spiel he doesn't actually represent it to be original, but he uses the term "Deluxe" and never mentions that the stock is not only not original, but that style of Monte Carlo stock didn't come along until another five to six years after the barreled action was made in 1953. I was able to "lift" one of the photos of the LH side of the receiver, brighten it, then enlarge it and clearly read the serial number of 13287. It was produced as a barreled action-only and inspected 15 October 1953. At least it was chambered in .22 Hornet.

    Someone may think that $3,750 is a fair price for this piece, and that's fine, too, IF they are informed that it is not original and the stock is from 2018, not 1953.
     
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  2. iwanna

    iwanna Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, those guys are bad news. A legitimate gun dealer needs to disclose everything honestly and build good relationships and trust.

    I gotta admit though, every time I go to a gun show it seems like I'm adding another dealer to the list of ones I won't even look at. A lot of sharks. Lot of hot potato guns.

    But this guy's different though. Purpose-built and marketed to deceive. Not okay.
     
  3. icebear

    icebear Sako-addicted

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    Seems like Sakos are joining Lugers, Colts, and Winchesters as a canvas for fakers. O tempora, O mores!
     
  4. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    While I don't care for this guys marketing tactics, I will say no where in the ad does he say "original". He does say "Beautifully crafted Deluxe stock, super rare caliber", but he doesn't say that the rifle is super rare. He says "Made in Finland" & also "Brought to you by the outstanding craftsmen at Custom Shop, Inc in Hamilton, MT". He parses his words very carefully, so as to avoid any claims of fraud. Must have a little attorney in him, as his intent to deceive is obvious but not technically a "chargeable offense". As good as their work is one would think they could market these rifles on the up & up & do very well. I wouldn't buy anything from him just because of his underlying deception. Having built several custom rifles, my judgement is the price is pretty high for what you get, but he's counting on the buyer to fall for the ruse!! Caveat Empor!!
     
  5. iwanna

    iwanna Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Simply say what it is and everything is fine. Also, in fairness to them, we are all constantly surrounded by dubious advertising claims.
     
  6. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    I have been to his store and bought and sold to Louie. He is 100% East Coast and I don't think those people have a conscience. I bought a Sako Deluxe in 6mm PPC from him and you probably won't find another one, at least anytime soon. I sold a deluxe 223 to him and traded a couple other guns to him as well. His checks are good, his humor isn't.

    Teresa, "T Bone" as he calls her, is really a nice lady and so is John who does most of the photography and listing. Their store is elegant and worth seeing. He does have stuff you won't find anywhere else, but he does manufacture Sako stocks that you can't tell from original other than if you know wood, you can tell it isn't original to Sako.

    His description is deceiving and meant to give the impression that the gun is original, but he doesn't say it is. I am not afraid to deal with him and I would do it again if he had something I want, but you do have to be careful...
     
  7. Rocky

    Rocky Well-Known Member

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    He's slicker than whale shit!

    You have to read between the lines with Louie. He does say "CRAFTED" but he just won't come out and make it clear, and tell ya that the rifle is a total put together, refurbish job.

    I can't believe that any non Sako collector would pay this type of money for this rifle.

    And that any Sako collector would.

    So I wonder, who does buy these rifles?
     
  8. douglastwo

    douglastwo Well-Known Member

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    Rocky, I believe the buyers are folks new to collecting that have deep enough pockets that they can make some quick purchases that will get them in the "hunt" to have a Sako collection. Just my opinion though. And they end up buying some less than correct items.
     
  9. Rocky

    Rocky Well-Known Member

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    I think that I have to agree with you Douglas.

    DEEP POCKETED New Collectors.

    I hope they come to this site first!
     
  10. cl_leg

    cl_leg Well-Known Member

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    I find the stock very interesting. Why copy a Weatherby?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  11. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    The stock is "semi correct". It is a copy of an early Deluxe from around 1958. Sako started out using the "Weatherby" slant on the forearm tip where it joins the forearm (top tapering rearward toward the bottom) until Weatherby objected, so Sako simply reversed the slant on later Deluxe stocks. Sako also originally used a diamond inlay in the grip instead of the "fox head" (L46) and the "tree" (L57). So the stock features are correct for that period.

    However, the barreled action is from 1953, not 1958. And, the barreled action is a standard and not a Deluxe (naturally, since there was no L46 Deluxe until around 1957-58). I would assume from the bright bluing on the metal that it is a re-blue. As a result, the wood is not only not original to the metal, but it is also wrong for the metal.

    That's not to say that if you put a 289 engine with triple carbs and chrome headers in a Model A Ford that it isn't a hotrod -- but it sure ain't an original Model A. It's not even a "restoration" of a Model A.
     
  12. pcunder

    pcunder Well-Known Member

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    Stone,

    I like the 289 analogy as I'm considering a 3x2 setup now for my 66 Fastback...
    No, it's not original, but I feel it's a performance improvement and it may matter to the next owner whether the improvements were OEM Ford or aftermarket add-ons.
    In my Mustang's case, it will be too obvious.


    To everyone else:
    I agree with what all has already been said; beautiful work and even more carefully crafted wording.
    Being constantly bombarded with other deceitful advertising doesn't make this example OK.

    I think I bought a stock from him (cracked/repaired 'original' 461 Deluxe), some scope ring screws and a hood or 2... I'm holding off on anything else at this point.

    Normally, when an unscrupulous seller tries to 'pawn off' a fake as something genuine, the price is MUCH lower that it should be and the buyer thinks he's getting the deal (steal) of the century so he jumps on it. The trick is to use the buyers own greed to get him to pull the trigger ASAP. That way, when the truth comes out as to the originality, the buyer has his own guilt to consider and is too ashamed to do anything about it. Like, I should have double-checked a few things and asked some direct, clarifying questions... But that takes time and this GREAT DEAL could be lost,,, So there's guilt and shame on the part of the buyer.

    Now this seller does NOT do that as he asks pretty much TOP DOLLAR as if it IS original...of course, without saying so. That, besides his careful 'word-smithing', is another thing that makes you think it is all as the Finns produced back in the day.

    So technically; NOT GUILTY as to the "words in the description".
    But his intent is certainly not honesty as every effort is made to capitalize on the uninformed with what is NOT said.
    But he can't feign ignorance as he is too knowledgeable and embedded in the process. It's all too obvious to the informed, educated collector but we are not his target. Was it PT Barnum that said; "There's a sucker born every minute."?

    Without 100% honesty, it's a lie. Every lie is 90% truth as that's what gets you to believe the other 10% of BS.
    A lie is an attempt to steal your trust. And for what purpose? Well, there are many reasons but the #1 answer is: "Survey said", $MONEY$..!! Ding ding ding...
     
  13. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    There is always the case of cutting off your nose to spite your face philosophy, and I won’t do that. If Louie has something I couldn’t find anywhere else I will try to get it , knowing full well he has padded the bargain in his favor. I need a “pinecone” floor plate and he has one, I just can’t justify the cost, but he has one and that isn’t something you can counterfeit.

    I have a bunch of Colts, Winchesters, Sharps and other collectible guns and regardless of the source, there are fakes and messed up guns all over the place. It is necessary to know what you are buying and the source you are getting them from. Regardless of your collection it is always buyer beware...
     
  14. cl_leg

    cl_leg Well-Known Member

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    Looking at it in a different manner. I know most of us work hard for our money. Lets say we are professionaly worth $50/hr. Now lets look at the quality of craftmanship the work this rifle has. Would it be 60 hours $3000?? plus the material. So, to me, he is providing a high quality firearm at a high price. Seems fair, I know I would want that money if I did the work.
    Where else can you buy a cloned deluxe L46 with that kind of quality? We have all seen customs alot more than that.
    Now, it is out of my league but it is nice!
    Whom ever is doing the wood work has talent. Maybe looking for a challenge copying a Weatherby. Seems what ever they attempt to do comes out quite well. Possibly a refinish not a remake, who knows.
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  15. robinpeck

    robinpeck Well-Known Member

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    Interesting and informative. Thanks.
     
  16. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    If you will read the posts, it has been documented through factory records that Sako sold it as a barreled action in 1953. That means NO STOCK!! It is also a well known fact that Sako did not make a "Deluxe" until 1958 & after. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be a refinish! No one is saying it is not a very nice rifle or the craftsmanship is bad. The complaint is in the deceptive marketing he uses to try to fool people that it is an original factory Sako. It is a put together gun using a barreled action from 1953 & a newly reproduced (not by Sako) "deluxe" stock. If you think it's worth $3750 that's OK. Like I said in my earlier post, if they would just be up front about what it is they could still make money & even gain business restoring legitimate Sakos. Their ability to mimic the Sako Deluxe stock is admirable, it's their deception that stinks.
     
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  17. cl_leg

    cl_leg Well-Known Member

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    paul,
    I have read the posts. I do understand it was a barreled action. Not sure why you cannot imagine the stock coming off a Sako deluxe rifle or new old stock or.., being refinished and put on this action. As I stated, I find it interesting they would copy a Weatherby style stock. I find it more likley they refinished an original. Where they got I do not know.
    Even more to my point if you think they made a new stock, I am very impressed. What my post was stating is the craftsmanship is worth the value.

    Chris
     
  18. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    "Custom Shop" makes these reproduction stocks and offers them for sale as stocks-only. They are not refinished originals. They appear to be quite well-made and follow the original configurations quite closely. In the case of the stock in question, it is a nearly exact reproduction of the Deluxe stock that Sako was making in 1958, and not a "Weatherby" reproduction. I've seen Custom Shop's reproduction stocks which copy later Sako Deluxe stocks, also.

    The prices I've seen for Custom Shop's reproduction stocks are about as much as you would pay for an entire Deluxe Sako. They may well cost that much to produce and sell at a reasonable mark-up; however, I have no way of knowing how much their production might cost.

    My beef with Custom Shop is not that they offer a nice reproduction stock, but that they often put those stocks on Sako barreled actions (themselves often refinished) and allow buyers to believe that everything is original about the rifle.
     
  19. cl_leg

    cl_leg Well-Known Member

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    The Sako deluxe stock made in 1958 is a copy of the Weatherby style which Weatherby put an end to. Now in 2018, 60 years later, the Custom Shop makes a copy of the copy...
     
  20. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    If you ever go to there shop, you will see all kinds of Sako deluxe stocks hanging in the shop. They are manufactured by someone that is very gifted in the stockmaking business, as they appear as exact copies. They are not cheap, but they are finely crafted and finished. If you want a fender for a 1965 GTO, you probably won't find an original anymore, but they can be found...

    121_3140.jpg
     
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