300 Holland and Holland Handloads for L61r

Discussion in 'Handloads for all Sako models' started by Saguaro, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    Good morning gentleman,


    I'd like to make some handloads in 300 H&H to use in a L61 r

    My original idea is to use some Sierra pro hunter 220 grains round nose
    and getting about 750 m/s which is more than enough for hunting wild boar at less than 100 meters, if I'm not mistaken ...

    Can anybody with knowledge or experience help me to develop a load for this rifle
    with powders available in Europe such as Vihtavuori ?

    Nevertheless other loads are welcome since I got a variety of bullets on 30 Cal such as :

    Frontier 220 flat nose
    Frontier 188 flat nose
    Lapua Scenar 167
    Hornady sst 125
    Etc....

    Thanks a lot !
     

  2. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    This is the rifle. I post a pic since, to my embarrassment, I don't exactly know the length of the barrel. Which, I can imagine, can play a role in the selection of the powders....
     

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  3. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    Your barrel doesn't appear to have been shortened, and if so then the original length is 24.4" or 620mm.

    Here is some load data using Vihtavuori powders: https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/?cartridge=20 And here is some using Norma powders: http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data/300-Holland-Holland-Magnum/ Both of those powders should be available to you in Europe.

    I use 73.5 grains of IMR 7828 SSC with a 180 grain Nosler Accubond (2960 fps) in my Sako H&H. This is the only load I worked up for it and use it exclusively since it shoots very accurately and the bullet is adequate for anything one might shoot with a .30 magnum. I took a cow elk with it (a single shot) a couple of years ago. I don't know if these components are available to you, but the Vihtavuori powders should do well, anyway.
     
  4. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    Hi Stonecreek, thanks a lot for inform me about the correct length of my L61r. 24.4" or 620mm. seems a great balance between powder performance and rifle handling.

    I understand IMR 7828 SSC is quite similar to the Vihtavuori N-165

    Too bad the Vihtavuori page only states information about 3 bullet weights. I'll look for more information.

    Here there is some data with Hodgdon H4831 which is similar to the V. N-160

    https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.300+Holland++Holland+Magnum.html

    For our local wild boar I'd prefer the heaviest and slower bullet I can shot for good energy transmission one shot and very fast death. However some people here prefer lighter and faster.

    Now I got to hunt for the right powder, not an easy thing here in Spain.
     
  5. kj60

    kj60 Well-Known Member

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    Can you get Woodleigh bullets in Spain, if so email Geoff McDonald
    zedfield@iinet.net.au
    who helped me out with loads for the heavier weights, and on several other load questions in various calibres.
    His 220g RN is a do anything bullet, and loads should also be suitable for the Sierra, but he convinced me the 200g would be better for my specific application. They also make a 240g that works fine in the 300 H&H.
     
  6. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    Thanks Kj60, I have been asking around and Woodleigh bullets are not available now in Spain.
    May be a friend can bring them to me from the U.S. one day.
    I'll write Geoff McDonald in case he can recommend me some loads.

    Sorry for my blatant ignorance .... Are Woodleigh bullets much better than Lapua Mega ?

    I'm using Lapua Mega 180 g R.N. in my Tikka .308 and the results are spectacular with our local wild boar. Sometimes too spectacular at less than 20 meters shots when there is a significant loss of meat.
    This is why I'd prefer to use heavier and slower bullets such as 220 grain in the 300 H&H. Than the usual 180 g. I want a one shot quick kill and loss as little meat as posible, as well, it's a matter of respect for the animals I hunt.

    The 240g Woodleigh R.N. sounds very tempting ... but I reckon it'd be a bit complicated with those occasional --once a year-- shots over 150 meters.

    I'm not familiar with the Sierra pro hunter R.N. Somebody gave me a box in 220 g. and I wanted to practice with them but I don't know if they are as good and effective as the Lapua Mega I have been using lately.
     
  7. dodgyrog

    dodgyrog Well-Known Member

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    Copied from the Viht reloading data;

    Weight Type/Name Mfg C.O.L. Type Weight Velocity Weight Velocity
    [g] [grs] [mm] [in.] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps]
    10,0 155 Scenar Lapua 91,4 3.598 N150 3,76 58.0 888 2913 3,97 61.3 935 3068
    N550 3,98 61.4 914 2999 4,26 65.8 971 3187
    N160 4,28 66.0 909 2982 4,57 70.5 967 3174
    12,0 185 Scenar Lapua 91,4 3.598 N160 3,95 60.9 820 2690 4,21 64.9 872 2862
    N560 4,31 66.5 851 2792 4,59 70.9 908 2978
    N165 4,35 67.1 843 2766 4,62 71.4 895 2937
    13,0 200 HPBT Sierra 91,4 3.598 N160 3,87 59.7 792 2598 4,04 62.4 829 2719
    N560 4,21 65.0 821 2694 4,42 68.1 864 2834
    N165 4,24 65.4 813 2667 4,45 68.6 853 2799
     
  8. paulsonconstruction

    paulsonconstruction Sako-addicted

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    About any standard copper jacketed lead cup & core bullet between 150 & 180 grains will be more than adequate to kill the game you refer to. Bullets heavier than that are designed for much bigger & tougher game that can also be dangerous, like the big bears. Using them on smaller game like deer or hogs can result in them not expanding properly, which can result in less meat damage but also result in an animal that runs some distance before succumbing if not hit in the right spot. Using a round nose is a good choice for the animals & ranges you mention. The heavier bullets will just kick harder & not gain you any real advantage for what you plan on shooting, IMHO. Any of the bullets you have will work fine. Let us know the results!!
     
  9. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    I do appreciate your advice immensely. Nevertheless, in my limited experience with black powder, 370 grains bullets at moderate speeds killed better and faster big boars than commercial fast .06 hunting bullets.
    Our wild boars are not easy to kill. They are extremely strong and have 1 inch or more very hard skin, often covered with mud, which helps expansion of the bullet.

    A 220 grains Lapua Mega or Sierra prohunter at 770 m/s will expand properly. I reckon.

    Besides the wild boar we have in Europe is much harder than hogs. Maybe I'm mistaken on that...

    Hunters and not hunters are seriously hurt or killed by male wild boar every year. I had one charge at me ,not when hunting, and it's not something you forget. Nevertheless they live in the hills just a few hundred metres from our houses and we hunt them and eat them. And we are grateful than they are around.

    I have been hunting them with different rifles and bullets allways looking for a quick responsible and respectful way of hunting

    And now I'd like to use this Sako l61r for this purpose. I'll do extensive test with wet paper or woods of the ammo I make before I shoot a boar. But I reckon a 220 grains bullet with the 300 h&h can be driven to a similar speed of a 185 g on a .308.

    It's also because the respect I have for the animals that I look for a way not to waste theirs precious meat.

    Shotgun slugs do the right job better than a ,06 or 9.3v but they are limited to about 70 metres and I don't have a shotgun.

    Can anybody please help me to develop handloads with Vihtavuori N 170 ? I only have N 170
    I found nothing in the net for that slow powder.
    I think it's a bit slower than IMR 7828

    Or.... And now I apologise for my blatant ignorance..... can I extrapolate reload data from 300 win mag ?

    There is plenty of data of 300 win mag with N 170 .


    Best regards to all of you from the Pyrenees hills.
     
  10. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    The .300 Winchester has slightly more capacity than the .300 H&H, but not by much.

    The Nosler Reloading Guide shows a maximum load of IMR 7828 with a 220 grain Partition bullet as 67.5 grains in the .300 H&H and 68.5 in the .300 Win -- for virtually the same velocity in each.

    The Lyman Handbook shows a 220 gr Sierra powered by RL22 with 67 gr in the H&H (and 2611 fps) and 70.5 gr. in the Win Mag (and 2696 fps). The Lyman Handbook used a pressure barrel for the .300 Win Mag but not for the .300 H&H, so it appears that the H&H was loaded more conservatively on that account.

    The Accurate Powders website shows a 180 grain Sierra in the H&H powered by AA4350 with 71.5 gr. (3068 fps, 63,720 PSI) and the same bullet in the Win Mag using 74.2 (3086 fps, 63,788 PSI).

    Perhaps these comparisons will give you some basis for interpolating N170 data. Generally speaking a 5% reduction from .300 Win Mag powder charges should yield approximately the same pressures, but only if you are an experienced handloader who is accustomed to working up loads on your own should you venture into this area.
     
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  11. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    Thank you Stonecreek.
    You are quite right it takes to be an experienced handloader to venture into interpolating N170 data upon the 300 h&h.
    I have made over thousand very different handloads with .308 and smaller cases and I feel the 300h&h handloads are way beyond my knowledge of handloading.

    I'll do nothing until I find specific data for the N170. I do appreciate your safety advice.
    Well, I'm NOT even 100% sure the n170 can be used in 300 h&h with 220 g bullets. That's only an assumption I made after looking at Vihtavuori 300 win mag data with 220 gr bullets. And also considering that the n165 is normally used in 300 h&h and it's just a bit faster than the n170.
    .... And the n165 was not available. Only n160 and n170 and I bought the slower n170 because I thought I'd safer choice, since I don't need velocity over 780 m/s

    I hope I can find specific data for this application soon.

    Thanks !
     
  12. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    I haven't used N170 so I don't know how dense it is, but I doubt that you can put enough N170 into a .300 H&H case to reach dangerous pressures with a 220 grain bullet (unless you compress it a very great deal.) It would be "too slow" for optimum velocities in the H&H with anything other than the heaviest bullets, but should give you appropriate velocities with a big 220 round nose.
     
  13. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    The burning rate of the N170 is similar to Hodgdon 1000 and Accurate 8700,

    In 300 win mag 80 grains ( max load ) of N140 gives about 800 m/s about 2600 f/s . Which is more than I need.

    And as far as I know, which is not much, the 300 h&h excels the 300 win mag with heavy bullets such as the 220 and reaches the same velocity with a tiny bit less powder.

    The N170 has bulk density of 960gr /liter
    https://www.vihtavuori.com/powder/n170-rifle-powder/


    Can a handloader with experience tell me if 77 grains of N170 are fine with a 220 grains r.n. bullet ?
     
  14. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    .........QuickLOAD suggests that N170 is too slow for it and that a case filled 100% under the bullet will reach only about 70% of maximum rated pressure.
    ......Using a powder that is too slow can result in barrel ringing (bore expansion) so it is best to use something better suited to it.
    .... N560, it appears from QuickLOAD that you can use a charge that is 98% of the charges Vihtavuori lists for the 200 grain Sierra bullet.
     
  15. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    I did contact Vihtavuori and asked for data.
    They answered 3 weeks later and said they had NO data for 220gr only had the small data published in their web

    I did contact Sierra and Paul answered within few hours with this:
    -----Try a starting load of N-160 with the 220’s in your 300 H&H of 54.5 grs. up thru a top of 58.5 grs.-----

    I checked NOSLER page and states the same as SIERRA:
    https://load-data.nosler.com/load-da...olland-magnum/

    Min....54.5 grs. --79%---2390ft /728m
    MED....56,5 --82%...2476ft 754m
    MAX....58.5 grs. 85%----2527ft 770m


    MY TEST:
    I made some tests following Sierra data for the
    ProHunter RN 220 COAL 3600 --91.4 mm
    It was kind of cold so I did carry the ammo in jacket to keep it off from the cold.

    56,5 gr N160 740 mps ---- 2427 fps
    57,5 gr "" 750 mps -----2460 fps
    58,5 gr "" 764 mps ----- 2506 fps --------I took a pic:
     
  16. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    This is the 58,5 g N160

    As far as I can see in the pic I can still add a little more powder.
    I got to say the case was only N.S. So it's kind of tight into the chamber, which I reckon it helps to increase pressure

    Please more experienced handloaders correct me if I'm wrong.
     

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  17. kirkbridgershooters

    kirkbridgershooters Well-Known Member

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    One thing you need to know about handloading is that you can't make a real determination of pressure from looking at primers. A flattened primer isn't necessarily the result of high pressure. A chronograph is a better indicator and whether or not the base of the cartridge itself shows sign of brass flow or imprint on the bolt face.
     
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  18. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    I agree with Kirk, but when the radius of the primer remains nearly as rounded as its pre-firing shape then the pressures are almost always somewhat below a safe maximum.

    However, if you had fired this same load in new (or FL sized) brass then the radius of the primer would likely be much flatter. This is not due to pressure but due to the case moving forward in the chamber upon the striking of the primer. The primer is pushed slightly out of the pocket by the initial powder igition, then the building chamber pressure pushes the case rearward, re-seating the now-flattened primer. Even a mild load will show a flat primer if the brass leaves a bit of headspace in the chamber.

    Whether the case is tight or loose in the chamber has no effect on pressure -- the chamber is always the same size and the very ductile brass always expands to fill it completely, thus the pressure vessel is always the same size.
     
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  19. Saguaro

    Saguaro Active Member

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    Thanks a lot for your insights

    I did mention the N.S. only because a read that 300 h&h handloaders who used Lee N.S. only die had to switch to full size die because they encountered pressure issues.
    I don't know if it makes sense to you.

    I have published the velocity vs N160 amount of powder above. How can I know if I can add a few more grains or I'm already close to a safe limit?

    Best regards from Spain
     
  20. stonecreek

    stonecreek SCC Secretary Forum Owner SCC Board Member

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    A grain or two more powder won't be "dangerous" since the rifle action is far stronger than pressure which will be produced by a small increment more powder. Whether such a load generates sustainable pressures depends on whether the brass is usable for multiple reloadings. Reload and fire the same load three times in the same case and if the primer pocket continues to grasp the primer reasonably tightly then the load is generating pressures within the pressure limits of the brass and is okay to use.
     

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