1970? Sako L61R 54XXX Unfired 30-06

[hkguns]

Just recently picked up my second Sako and my first "vintage" variety. Thought I would share the pictures with you guys to see what you thought. The bluing is 100% the bolt and barrel are unfired and there are a couple of light safe marks on the stock. I'm pretty happy with my first Finnbear. Based on my reading here everything appears to be square with this rifle. the bolt serial number matches the 5 digit receiver serial. The bolt also appears to be of 1970 vintage. Any better ideas on how to date it more accurately? Best guess I can come up with based on the serial number PDF is 1970.

 

[Anonymous]

hkguns,
Welcome too the forum. She's a beauty. Nice find.The other piece of your equation is that you have a three lug bolt, which would help date your rifle in the general area you stated or perhaps a little earlier, but not much. If there is an import stamp on the bottom of the barrel just in front of the fore end that will be another consideration in dating it. You may hear different comments on this. A lot of people on the site like to nit pic about Fall or Spring of such and such a year, but in the end it is nebulous. You still have that fine rifle the way it is.
I feel you have a great, clean, rifle, and that butt pad is near perfect. You may think to store it flat or upright with the barrel down in the safe as those pads tend to get brittle and there are no factory replacements.
Once again, welcome aboard.
S-A

 

[hkguns]

Thank-you for the warm welcome. Glad to know you don't see any obvious issues. I am pondering whether or not to shoot this rifle, I'm curious what others would do with it? I am 50-50 right now, part of me wants to scope it up and the other part says it has been this way for 40 years why ruin it......
Thanks for the tip on the butt pad. I will turn it around in the safe tonight, or put it back in the box and let it lay flat.
Do I need to remove the barrel from the stock to see if there is an import mark?

 

[ram511]

S-A: I've noticed 3 point checkering on the grip and forearm. Is this more confusion from SAKO since older rifles had 3/2 points and early 70's models were 2/2 ??
RAM

 

[stonecreek]

HK: You can date your rifle a little closer in two ways. First, if you are in the U.S. and it has an import mark (underside of the barrel just in front of the forearm) reading "Firearms International, Wash., D.C.", then it will be late 1968 or after. If it has an import mark reading "Garcia Sporting Arms" then it will be late 1971 to 1972. If it has "Bofors Steel" on the right hand side of the barrel (I doubt it), then it will be before 1969. But that's all hair splitting -- its a great rifle and you should be happy to have acquired it.

As to shooting it, suit yourself. You won't devalue it much by shooting it because most people won't believe that a 45 year-old rifle is unfired, anyway. There are a lot of people, unfortunately, who try to make a few bucks by polishing up guns and finding or counterfeiting hang tags for them in order to pass them off as "new and unfired". Simply shooting a gun, as long as it is not abused, won't hurt it. That's what they're made for, after all.

Of course, if you have a whole room full of perfectly serviceable .30-06's and only one whitetail tag to fill per year, there is not much point in shooting the gun just for the sake of shooting it. But if it is something you would enjoy taking afield on a hunt (and who wouldn't?), then don't hesitate to do so. The few dollars you might lose in changing its "unfired" status pales in comparison to the pleasure of actually using it.

 

[Anonymous]

ram511,
To be honest with you, my interest doesn't delve into the arena of what checkering is on a Sako (as long as it's not all dinged up). It all looks good to me and I don't have a stack of gun porn in the corner to look at the pictures (I mean read the articles) to identify the difference. The purists will like to make the distinctions for certain model identification, although when assembled I don't see why the anomalies found in the machined parts can't also be found in checkering patterns - a point that I don't believe has been looked at here as for the sake of another fluke, but more to "establish" what era or model it is. You will hear often on this site that: "With Sako, you never know".
Sometimes you don't. However, there are some pretty informed opinions floating around after years of a lot of folks scratching their heads about them and trying to do some homework on the "why's".
Sorry I can't help you more.
S-A

 

[stonecreek]

Re: Number of chekering points.

Sakos from the 1970s and before were all hand checkered (and maybe later models also, but that is irrelavent to this discussion.) Although the checkering does usually follow the same general pattern, I've seen definate indications of slight variations that have to be a result of the individual craftsman. For instance, how close together the two checkering panels come on the underside of the grip can vary quite markedly from rifle to rifle. I've also seen signficant variations in the quality of the checkering, the weaker examples of which I attribute to apprentice or otherwise lesser-skilled technicians.

Although the three-point checkering pattern on the forearm is almost always associated with later rather than earlier guns, I'm wondering if both two and three point checkering was produced simultaneously, with the option being left to the discretion of the individual craftsman?

It seems that things like Phillips vs. slot screw heads in the grip caps varied with whatever the supplier had available, and serial number sequence varied with how deeply someone reached into the bin stacked with actions, so would it also make sense that checking patterns varied slightly with who it is that was doing the checkering?

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey Ram,
I have three-point checkering on the pistol grip and forearm of a post model 72 non-import, pre-72 Garcia imports and Firearms International imports. As S-A eluded to, I would not get to wrapped-up in checkering patterns. There are much simpler and more accurate ways of ID'ing a Sako rifle.
Regards, Will

 

[hkguns]

Thanks for everyone's input so far....I checked the barrel again and it has a Garcia import marking and I do not see any reference to bofors on the barrel. So it appears 71-72 is about as good as it will get with this one.Is there a reason Pre-Garcia's appear to be preferred?How much difference did the importer make to the actual rifle. IE: Was there a lot of difference between a 69 & 70 L61R? Or, is it just a case of the earlier the better. I understand the pre-64 Winchester story, I just don't see a lot of that type of difference in these rifles.Edit: I see from the "old site" database, (not sure what that is) there is a 55XXX that was produced in August 1971, so I think my 54XXX was definitely produced in 1971.

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey Hkguns,
Based on Serial number, I would say pretty sure mid 1971. Very nice pre-model 72, Garcia import, L61R Finnbear, with of course the three-lug bolt.
Will

 

[Anonymous]

Amen! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!:bigsmile3:

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey Hkguns,
There is absolutely no difference between a 1970 Firearms International import and a 1971 Garcia import. Non, zero, zilch, zip. I think I am going to have to post detailed side by side photos of each. Myself and others' answering of this question (No insult to you Hkguns or anyone at all) is getting extremely redundant and should be a sticky or on FAQ. The reason why Pre-Garcia's seem to be preferred is because it has been erroneously used by the uniformed for years. A "true" pre-Garcia rifle would be one with a Firearms International (FI) import stamp, or one made for other than U.S. import made during the the time of FI importation, or a an FI rifle with no stamp made prior to the import stamp requirement outlined by the Gun Control Act of 1968. When Garcia bought out FI around late 1970 ish, they assumed the importation of the Sako production line that was being imported by FI. This production line did not change with the exception of the L61R Finnbear being offered in the Mannlicher configuration. The Sako production line imported by Garcia did not change until the standard sporter changes that occurred with the Model 72, yes, 1972. Hence the correct term, Pre-model 72. For further, proof, I would be happy to post photo's of the Last FI catalog, 1969-1970, and the following year catalog by Garcia. Same photos, same words etc. So, to recap my more than likely, difficult to follow explanation, here is a timeline, which for here, is approx. within one year (does not address non-imports)
Up until 1968 - Rifles were imported to the U.S. by Firearms International and had no import stamp.
1968 to Mid 1970 - Rifles were imported to the U.S. by Firearms International and had the F.I. import stamp.
Late 1970 early 1971 - Garcia took over importation of the Sako production line previously established by F.I.
Late 70, early 71 to 1972 - Rifles imported to the U.S. by Garcia were of the same production line as the F.I. imports with the exception of the addition of the L61R finnbear mannlicher, and of course the Garcia import stamp.
1972 - Garcia/Sako developed for the U.S. market the model 72 (L61R Finnbear, L579 Forester, L461 Vixen) with mostly cosmetic changes to replace the 10 year old standard Sporter. Garica also dropped the importation of rifles with the Mannlicher stock.
Disclaimer: There is more than likely overlap on the dates and they are approximate.
Regards, Will

 

[Anonymous]

Will,
Well put. "Redundancy" came to my mind a long time ago. Yet, with increasing membership we cannot just put some things to bed.
S-A

 

[hkguns]

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be redundant and I must have missed a sticky if there is one that has this information.
I have tried to do a lot of reading of different threads. I now understand the pre-72 references I've seen in many of the other threads. I guess it was confusing for me to see so many references to "pre-Garcia" all over the Gun auction sites.
I did see the sticky on when the importers changed....Had all of that....Just didn't understand all of the pre-garcia references all over the place. I guess that is in actuality roughly accurate as there was only a short time when between Garcia taking over and the year 1972. Thanks again for everyone's input and help here.....I'm completely new to this so I apologize if I've hacked anyone off, that certainly was not my intent.
There is a ton of good information here.....Not all of it sinks in right away unfortunately.

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey hkguns,
No. No. No. Was not picking you or anyone else out. Its just as S-A stated that with constant new members, providing information is a never ending process. My frustration comes from trying to get everything straight each time I type it! Looks like you understood what I wrote though. Well done!
Regards, Will

 

[Anonymous]

hkguns,
Don't even think twice about it. The main idea of developing the FAQ's was to refer questions like yours to that area instead of having to re-write all of the information over and over. Just hasn't quite caught on yet.
By reading the FAQ's that are built upon when new information pops up, it just clears things up a little faster and we get a more focused information base on the subject matter. We're still a growing community and working on it.
You're good. No worries. We're glad you are with us.
S-A

 

[stonecreek]

I would agree that our nomenclature for Sakos of various iterations and eras is somewhat innaccurate and lacking. I would also agree with Will that there is no difference, other than the import stamp, between late FI's and early Garcias.

Where there IS a significant difference, and we have no "name" for this, is between early FI's with the lighter barrel and stock contours and later FI's with the heavier barrel and stock contours. I've narrowed the change down to around SN 25,000, give or take a few thousand considering Sako's schizophrenic serial numbers, and I think the change from "light" to "heavy" also approximately coincides with the change from an open-centered crossbolt nut to a solid center crossbolt nut (the former having a flat surface for the recoil lug to bear against and the latter having a round surface). It may or may not coincide with the change in the magazine release from the "s" lever to the round plunger. And it may or may not roughly coincide with the change from plastic grip cap to bare grip.

Maybe someone has coined a name to describe these two different "pre-Garicas", but if they have I am unaware of it.

If we could gather up roughly 100 guns from this era to compare them in the flesh we might draw some dependable conclusions, but we're still like the four blind men describing an elephant from feel: What you say about it depends on which part of it you've got hold of.

 

[temozon]

Will et. al. - Glad to see such a straightforward rendition of a time-line for the FI to Mod 72 era. I'm also acutely aware that trying to date by S/N is iffy at best. Here's an example: according to the old SCA SAKO Production/Shipping Dates List of Oct 1983 for L579 in .308: s/n 97958 is dtd 4/29/71, s/n 101861 dtd 4/1/71 & s/n 112067 (Mod 72) 8/14/72, and yet I own s/n 10061X (FI stamped) which the time-line would point to it being no later than mid 1970 (rather than the SCA bracketing of Apr 1971).

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey all, and bsmith,
Thanks bsmith! I truly enjoy doing anything/everything I can to find and document the facts as best I can and to share them with others. I agree with you regarding there being discrepancies (iffyness) in the old SCA SN list. I don't know, and I'm sure some of the SCA members would, were the SN's/dates on the old list generated from verified Hang-tags, receipts, order forms etc.? I know that is the requirement (I believe) of the new list Scott is maintaining.
Regards,
Will

 

[mcgrif2243]

Hey Stone,
Well done on striking-up a new mystery! For what caliber are you using the 25,000 SN?
Will