Throat & on L61R Finnbear 264 win mag

[Alvaro]

Hi there!

New here, long time sako shooter! Thanks to all for attending my message and congrats on a great forum!

I have an old L61R Finnbear, chambered in 270W. I reloaded for it, and noticed a huge freebore. The throat is also well toasted after many rounds (i get ir second handed and showing lots of use). I have to go well past book max loads to get full pressure.

I have acquired another L61R finnbear, but will not be able to get my hands in it till december (if COVID allow me to go to collect the rifle )

I´m planning on components for reloading (I allready have a Winchester M70 264WinMag, so no new to the cartridge). I was expecting a "similar" freebore & throat in this rifle, but it looks like earlier sakos in 264 Win Mag have nearly zero freebore?

My idea was to use it with heavy bullets for short range hunting ("driven hunts"). I was considering the Lapua Mega 156, but it´s really bunt bullet (nearly flat pointed) and this will be a bad combination with short freebore and step throat. The Norma Oryx could be a good option.

Just want to know if someone could know what should I expect for this chamber. Rifle S/N is 51914. Any other additional info will be appreciated (year of manufacture, barrel brand,...)

I can post some pics if needed.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Impossible for me to predict what your chamber & barrel condition will be, but I can pass on my experience with the Lapua 155 Mega-Bullet. The 155 it a markedly shorter bullet than the lighter weight spire point & plastic tipped boat tail designs, but it's ogive is much closer to the end of the bullet. The COAL will be shorter with the Lapua in order for the ogive to not jam into the lands. However, seating it deeper to accomplish this should not rob any case capacity. If fact I doubt it will go below the bottom of the neck. I think you will find it is not the "bad combination" you envision. I use it in a different 6.5mm round & couldn't be more pleased. The shorter OAL allows it to fit easily in my medium action length (L57) action & it's terminal performance is remarkable. It is designed for more moderate velocity rounds, like the 6.5 Swede, so I'm not sure I would load it as fast as the 264 Mag can push them. For the use you describe you would get more than ample effectiveness with less than max velocity anyway. I load mine at 2550 fps & they are an absolute hammer on everything I've shot so far. Max point blank range on an eight inch target is 300 + yards. Everything shot was a pass thru except one 350 lb hog I shot in the chest. Recovered the bullet in the right ham. It had shattered both the front shoulder & the rear leg bone & still retained 80% of it's weight. I would keep the velocity below 2700 fps & your throat should last longer than you. BTW, I tried the Norma & the Hornady 160 gr & so should you, as they are very similar. The Lapua just shot more accurately (.3 MOA) in my rifle. The grooves in the shank are to reduce the shank's bearing surface & not crimping grooves as some think. Good Luck & let us know how things work out.

 

[stonecreek]

Sako .264 chambers are made to SAAMI specs, which many years ago Winchester inexplicably set with a zero leade. This creates a problem if you want to load the cartridge out to take advantage of the long Sako L61R magazine. However, as Paulson says, a blunt bullet like the Lapua probably can be loaded shallow enough to allow you full-power loads (if desired).

I bought a Sako .264 in 1965 and it has had uncountable rounds through it. A few years after I bought it I had a gunsmith extend the leade to allow me to load 140 grain Nosler Partitions out to about 3.45" which put the base of the bullet at the neck/shoulder junction. This alteration required just a bit more powder to match the pre-alteration velocities, but also allowed a bit higher velocities with more powder, still staying within acceptable pressures.

By the way, the throat of this rifle looks like alligator hide for the first inch or so. Despite that, it still shoots groups under an inch at a hundred yards and seems to always put the first shot from a cold barrel exactly where it is supposed to go. It's not the way a barrel looks that counts, it's the way a barrel shoots.

 

[Alvaro]

Impossible for me to predict what your chamber & barrel condition will be, but I can pass on my experience with the Lapua 155 Mega-Bullet. The 155 it a markedly shorter bullet than the lighter weight spire point & plastic tipped boat tail designs, but it's ogive is much closer to the end of the bullet. The COAL will be shorter with the Lapua in order for the ogive to not jam into the lands. However, seating it deeper to accomplish this should not rob any case capacity. If fact I doubt it will go below the bottom of the neck. I think you will find it is not the "bad combination" you envision. I use it in a different 6.5mm round & couldn't be more pleased. The shorter OAL allows it to fit easily in my medium action length (L57) action & it's terminal performance is remarkable. It is designed for more moderate velocity rounds, like the 6.5 Swede, so I'm not sure I would load it as fast as the 264 Mag can push them. For the use you describe you would get more than ample effectiveness with less than max velocity anyway. I load mine at 2550 fps & they are an absolute hammer on everything I've shot so far. Max point blank range on an eight inch target is 300 + yards. Everything shot was a pass thru except one 350 lb hog I shot in the chest. Recovered the bullet in the right ham. It had shattered both the front shoulder & the rear leg bone & still retained 80% of it's weight. I would keep the velocity below 2700 fps & your throat should last longer than you. BTW, I tried the Norma & the Hornady 160 gr & so should you, as they are very similar. The Lapua just shot more accurately (.3 MOA) in my rifle. The grooves in the shank are to reduce the shank's bearing surface & not crimping grooves as some think. Good Luck & let us know how things work out.

Thanks for good info on bullet performance... I´m leading to Norma Oryx or Lapua Mega... decission may be taken depending on availability... as both are not easy to get.

Regarding speeds... i would like to keep them high. Not going "stupid" fast (over pressure), but want to take all advantadge of the 264 potential. I hope both bullets will have enough S/D to penetrate. It looks like the Oryx is strong enough.

This vid is woth a view (they are using 180 oryx in a 30-06)

Thanks!

 

[Alvaro]

Sako .264 chambers are made to SAAMI specs, which many years ago Winchester inexplicably set with a zero leade. This creates a problem if you want to load the cartridge out to take advantage of the long Sako L61R magazine. However, as Paulson says, a blunt bullet like the Lapua probably can be loaded shallow enough to allow you full-power loads (if desired).

I bought a Sako .264 in 1965 and it has had uncountable rounds through it. A few years after I bought it I had a gunsmith extend the leade to allow me to load 140 grain Nosler Partitions out to about 3.45" which put the base of the bullet at the neck/shoulder junction. This alteration required just a bit more powder to match the pre-alteration velocities, but also allowed a bit higher velocities with more powder, still staying within acceptable pressures.

By the way, the throat of this rifle looks like alligator hide for the first inch or so. Despite that, it still shoots groups under an inch at a hundred yards and seems to always put the first shot from a cold barrel exactly where it is supposed to go. It's not the way a barrel looks that counts, it's the way a barrel shoots.

Hi! Thanks for the comment!

If I´m not mistaken, the lead on the 264 SAAMI design ( I´m not allowed to post links yet... thus the extra spaces included h t t p s ://saami.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf -see page 82-) has a very short leade (as you say!), but it´s no longer that the leade on many other cartridges as the 270WCF for example. It´s not zero but 0,016". Also the throat is somewhat "agressive" at 2 degrees.

This is "somewhat good news" for me. My actual 264 WM (win 70) has an out of spec chamber with sooo loose headspace that I have to use false shoulders for fireforming and can´t reach the lands with 140 SST. I would prefer to have the chamber reamed as yours, but will be happier with the "zero" leade that with headspace problems.

I think that, after all, I´m posting this because my previous issues with the 264WM... it´s a round with nice story and performance, a nice pair with the finnbear. But the actual owner told me that he is having ignition problems... I have considered three possible issues:
- Bad condition of ammo (it´s old factory WW) (best case scenario)
- Sticky grease in firing pin or coil spring (easy to fix... but don´t know if this is a common issue with finnbears)
- Headspace problems or bolt lugs set back (worst case scenario... the same I´m having in my win 70)

Any info or guessing wellcome!

I would let you know how it ends... but will need to collect the rifle first!

 

[Alvaro]

Another option...

Go to a low bearing surface bullet: a long nose will keep the bullet out of the rifling and the boat tail will reduce the volume of case used and also keep the bullet shank out of the case shoulder/neck junction.

May worth considering Berger VLD or classic hunter in 135-140 grains...

 

[stonecreek]

Go to a low bearing surface bullet: a long nose will keep the bullet out of the rifling

That's exactly what Winchester did originally. I have no idea what Winchester was thinking, but their original 140 grain bullet for the .264 was a "two diameter" bullet. The rear portion of the bullet held within the neck of the case was .264", while the front portion was about .255" or so. Thus, the front end of the bullet extended into (and rode on top) of the lands of the barrel while the rear portion was the diameter of the grooves and provided the bore seal.

This apparently worked okay, but why do it? It is a mystery, the answer to which most likely died with the engineers who designed it decades ago. Ironically, it is exactly the opposite to the theory Weatherby used with their hyper-speed magnums which had a long free bore to effectively increase the size of the chamber/pressure vessel without increasing the size of the brass case.

 

[Alvaro]

Totally agree...

And that´s why you can´t seat a bullet to touching the lands on a weatherby... or go to a short freebore weatherby chamber and pretend to get "original" speeds without raising pressures a lot.

I heard of "original" double diameter winchester bullets... have a couple power points (and REM corelockt BTW) that were pulled from factory 264 ammo... will measure them for curiosity!

What a shame... because I like the "old style" looking of the orix or mega in this rifle&cartridge combination. Berger VLD or tipped bullets are not that "well looking" in this combo... will check the rifle and decide after that.

The most concerning issue now is the fail to fire with some rounds as the previous owner says...

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Either bullet will have more than enough SD to provide plenty of penetration. Don't worry about a few extra FPS, as too much velocity can actually hinder penetration if bullet integrity isn't maintain. Don't know how the Norma is constructed, but the Lapua is a regular cup & core bullet so excess velocity is not your friend. I've never hunted ballistic gelatin, but I've shot quite a few big game animals & witnessed even more being shot & those experiences have convinced me that heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocity is much more consistent & effective than relying on some fancy "bonded", "premium", "will go through armor plate" bullet & high velocity. Accuracy trumps velocity & penetration trumps kinetic energy, EVERY TIME! Be sure to post your results.

 

[Alvaro]

Hi there again!

I just get the rifle a couple days before.

It´s in used condition and the previous owner gave me the factory brass he kept during his years of hunting. It looks like it has no more than 200 shots trhough it, so not trhoat-abused. It was used for hunting only, so these shots have been taken during many years (no long strings of fire).

It has a "rare" (?) version of the #4 trigger: the one with bolt sear engagement screw and overtravel set screw too.

I have settled in the sierra TGK "Gamechanger" 130 grains to feed it. It looks like it´s traditional cup and core bullet, but with strong jacket, so hopefully will be adecuate for close up shots and will be flatter and faster for mid-range shots and initiate expansion well...

I´m refinishing the rifle prior to start reloading for it. Will share some pics if any member is interested. New recoil pad and bedding job in the menu... And refinishing woods also (maybe ebony forend tip?)... Let´s see how things go.

BTW... I have added another L61R to the gun safe: a very mint condition 300 H&H!

 

[stonecreek]

BTW... I have added another L61R to the gun safe: a very mint condition 300 H&H!

Lucky you! You have two of the most sought-after calibers in the L61R. Both bring a premium here in the U.S. As compared to a .30-06 or 7mm Rem, I'd say that the .264 is worth something like a 25-50% premium, and the .300 H&H brings perhaps a 50-75% premium, wear and condition being the same. Two great, and scarce, calibers which are both excellent game takers.

 

[Alvaro]

Lucky you! You have two of the most sought-after calibers in the L61R. Both bring a premium here in the U.S. As compared to a .30-06 or 7mm Rem, I'd say that the .264 is worth something like a 25-50% premium, and the .300 H&H brings perhaps a 50-75% premium, wear and condition being the same. Two great, and scarce, calibers which are both excellent game takers.

That was two on a row! I had the 264 purchase closed but, while waiting for it to come I just saw the 300H&H advertised and it was too good to let it go!

Moreover, a friend of mine get another 300H&H finnbear one year ago. He is using it a lot in driven hunts and say nothing but good things about the rifle/caliber combo...

I think I should share some pics in the "show your sako" page. I just received some norma cases and a box of Sierra 180 Prohunter round nose that fits like a glove with the old Holland Super 30! This rifle will never see a plastic tip bullet in the chamber