Born on and Shipping Dates

[CVCOBRA1]

I've noticed this for quit some time now. How is it that Roger Bell over at the SakoSource store can give the dates of most of his rifles he has for sale. The serial numbers a lot of times fall outside of the requirements that we are subject to in request for factory records services. This is mostly for the L61R model. Here we are limited to a top number of 48900 and he can supply dates for guns way outside of that range. I know he supports the SCC but does he have a source for records that the SCC doesn't. I have several L61R's that fall just outside of the 48900 range and would like info on but can't even request it. Am I missing something here?

 

[sakojim]

There have been many inquiries and discussions about manufacturing and shipping dates of Sakos on this forum for years. I as a collector (for what its worth) and Sako lover have long ago come to the following conclusions: 1) There are many lists available on these forum discussions and from SCC to gain a APPROXIMATE date of manufacture of most given models of older Sako rifles due to the fact that the factory kept inconsistent records partly because of inventory changes and model variations. 2) ALL dates are assumed to be APPROXIMATE or ESTIMATED because of this. 3) Special orders and custom orders also had inconsistent number variations because parts were mixed and often not drawn from inventory in numerical sequence. 4) I as a collector do not place importance on the estimated date of manufacture UNLESS it can be verified by the ORIGINAL hang tag, packing box or invoice. My buying preference of any rifle is determined by the condition and rarity of the particular item and date of manufacture is secondary unless verifiable by records. I am quite certain that any honest collector, gun dealer or seller will agree with this. There are some records available that have verified records of shipping dates by hang tags of individual rifles that were kept by the SCA. I am very fortunate to have acquired some of these records from a previous SCA members estate. Roger Bell of Sako Source is a club member and I am sure that he would be happy to share his opinion on this subject also. I hope that this will help you find the answer to your concerns. There was a recent referral on this forum that shows a listing of Sako/Tikka numbering and changes. The one on L61r Sakos goes up to ser. 589309- 08.01.1985. There are others dated up to 1991. Hopes this helps. Sakojim.

 

[sakojim]

I forgot one other important variation that your heading gave. Many Sako rifles were for some reason delayed in inventory much longer than other newer ones so the 'born on and shipping dates' can only be estimated by interpolation. Sakojim.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

Thanks Jim,
I did realize from reading on here that most if not all records from the Sako factory were hand written. Also serial numbered actions did not go out in order. Consecutive numbers could go out years apart. My question that Roger had a different source was just that. I'll have to do a search for the recent referral on the Sako/Tikka numbering that you mentioned. The numbered listing on the Sako site is vague as it is.

 

[deergoose]

Nicely stated, sakojim ! Yeah, Sako mixed and matched things up according to their business model and manufacturing process. Not their fault that it would cause confusion for us collectors. I let my collection tell me the Sako story, and consider SCC records, records from the old SCA and my own records that I've managed to gather from various sources as extra info that adds to the collection ! The rifles and whatever else purchased with them come first, anything else is just an added bonus. that's the way I look at it.

DeerGoose

 

[paulsonconstruction]

I've noticed this for quit some time now. How is it that Roger Bell over at the SakoSource store can give the dates of most of his rifles he has for sale. The serial numbers a lot of times fall outside of the requirements that we are subject to in request for factory records services. This is mostly for the L61R model. Here we are limited to a top number of 48900 and he can supply dates for guns way outside of that range. I know he supports the SCC but does he have a source for records that the SCC doesn't. I have several L61R's that fall just outside of the 48900 range and would like info on but can't even request it. Am I missing something here?

I don't see where Rodger gives specific dates for rifles except when saying "factory records indicate it was made in", then the year. All those listings fall within the club records serial number base. All the other listings say things like "early 70's" or other approximation. I went thru his entire list and could find not a single listing that could match your claim. Any that did in the past may have had a hang tag or receipt that provided a date. The "exact" date a rifle was made is the most irrelevant info one can concern themselves with in the first place. Sakos can be placed in different periods or "eras" of production based on certain features, modifications or importer from which we can then put an estimated time of production on that will be within a few years + or-. Does knowing the "exact" date really make any difference? The Sako/Tikka numbering list or any other list you may find online with all be vague approximations, possibly full of errors & should be taken with a grain of salt, as they say. You are not going to find "definitive" answers. Just sayin'.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

https://www.sakosource.com/-1575rs-dlx2506.html

One quick example here. He says it shows to have been shipped in 1974. How does he know that unless it does have a hang tag? If he has the tag I wish it would say so. The new owner should get the tag and it would be worth more in the price of the gun. It does not match the dates on Sako's site only that it may have been made in 1970 and shipped in 74. Sako numbers are a mess I will agree with that. Sako had to have held many many rifles after production for years. Not doubting Roger, but where does his info come from?

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Why don't you just call him and ask. He's a very friendly guy & I am sure he would explain where he got his info. Seems it would be better to ask him than us where his info comes from. His phone number is listed in his ad and every time I call, he is the one who answers. There is no conspiracy to hide data from you!! Once again, why does it matter? Chasing born on dates for Sakos is like chasing ghosts. It doesn't affect the rifle one bit. I have never asked for factory data on any of my Sakos, as I couldn't care less about their production dates and none of the rifles seem to care either. Using Sako's site to determine anything about a "specific" rifle is a fool's errand. If you do find out a Sako's exact production date, what changes?

 

[stonecreek]

In exchange for SakoSource's (Rodger's) continued advertising support of the site, we provide him with manufacturing dates when requested.

On this particular rifle (an early Deluxe .25-06) it was not listed in the inspection records which end in 1972. However, the shipping records we have extend into 1978.

The shipping records are chronological, but unless you know the date on which the rifle was inspected it is usually extremely difficult to locate it in the shipping records (and sometimes even then it is tedious to go through pages and pages searching for one serial number among thousands.)

Sometimes with a rifle of a scarcer caliber (and a scarcer configuration like Deluxe) the volume of serial numbers is small enough that a brief look through the records will, with a little luck, turn up the serial number. That was the case with this particular rifle, and as I recall, it was located by happenstance when doing separate research on whether there was ever a "pre-Garcia .25-06 (there was not). So, it was a very lucky exception which we were glad to pass on to Rodger for the benefit of whoever might eventually purchase the rifle

The reason the Club doesn't offer to provide information on rifles that may be in the shipping records but not in the inspection records is (1) it is impossible to know by serial number if it is in the shipping records, and (2) even if it is in the shipping records it may be buried in many dozens of pages containing many thousands of serial numbers. For example, if you had a Garcia standard .30-06 it would probably be found somewhere in the shipping records, but from 1972 to 1978 there are approximately 20 pages of shipping records per year for .30-06's, with as many as 600 to 800 serial numbers on each page, all handwritten (and some of those guys had worse handwriting than mine!) Complicating matters further, on many of the late shipping records the header which shows the caliber and configuration was cut off on the initial microfiche, so we can only guess what rifles the serial numbers on the page represent.

Click on the link to see a page from 1975 which shows hundreds of serial numbers, all in random order, with no information indicating what caliber they are and you'll see the problem it represents.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

Thanks Stonecreek, that explains a lot. I was just wondering how Roger could get dates from serial numbers that fall outside the list that are posted on the request site. I have a couple of L61R's that fall just outside the 48900 cut off. Couldn't understand how Roger could date his and I couldn't find out anything. I was in no way trying to "short change" the club in getting info on my rifles, it just plainly states that if your numbers don't fall within the area, don't ask. Unlike another member on here I am curious what the age of my rifles are. Bofors stamed and import marked do give a clue. I'm only interested in the L series, don't have any A's.
Thanks again

 

[sakojim]

Thank you Stone for a very thorough and complete explanation about Sako serial number variations and sources. Most important is the simple fact that there is no significant importance concerning these references. These factors WOULD be more important with other firearms such as Winchesters of much a older manufactured era. I believe that the more important aspect of Sako rifles are transition examples between models such as bolt shrouds since they made improvements or changes between models. Also it is possible that some of these variations were caused by parts bin mixtures. In any event I hope that you have put this question to rest. (At least temporarily!) Sakojim.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

I'm done. After reading many threads over the past few years as to "when was my rifle made" or "what year", Stone finally answered the question I had and no one else had asked. He actually answered it without any smarmy quip which I again thank him for.

 

[ricksengines]

Been around for over 72 years and this one is new to me. What the heck is a smarmy quip? I gotta remember this one and can't wait for an opportunity to come along when I can use it. Assuming of course that is not offensive. Oh what the heck, I'll use it even if it is.

rick

 

[HBHUNTER]

There have been many inquiries and discussions about manufacturing and shipping dates of Sakos on this forum for years. I as a collector (for what its worth) and Sako lover have long ago come to the following conclusions: 1) There are many lists available on these forum discussions and from SCC to gain a APPROXIMATE date of manufacture of most given models of older Sako rifles due to the fact that the factory kept inconsistent records partly because of inventory changes and model variations. 2) ALL dates are assumed to be APPROXIMATE or ESTIMATED because of this. 3) Special orders and custom orders also had inconsistent number variations because parts were mixed and often not drawn from inventory in numerical sequence. 4) I as a collector do not place importance on the estimated date of manufacture UNLESS it can be verified by the ORIGINAL hang tag, packing box or invoice. My buying preference of any rifle is determined by the condition and rarity of the particular item and date of manufacture is secondary unless verifiable by records. I am quite certain that any honest collector, gun dealer or seller will agree with this. There are some records available that have verified records of shipping dates by hang tags of individual rifles that were kept by the SCA. I am very fortunate to have acquired some of these records from a previous SCA members estate. Roger Bell of Sako Source is a club member and I am sure that he would be happy to share his opinion on this subject also. I hope that this will help you find the answer to your concerns. There was a recent referral on this forum that shows a listing of Sako/Tikka numbering and changes. The one on L61r Sakos goes up to ser. 589309- 08.01.1985. There are others dated up to 1991. Hopes this helps. Sakojim.

SakoJim, very good information on the serial #'s etc. What would a reasonable production date of a Sako Finnbear AV #596873 be. The butt pad is solid and I would think its a late 80"s early 1990 model. Any opinion or direction would be appreciated. HBhunter

 

[bigcountry4me]

SakoJim, very good information on the serial #'s etc. What would a reasonable production date of a Sako Finnbear AV #596873 be. The butt pad is solid and I would think its a late 80"s early 1990 model. Any opinion or direction would be appreciated. HBhunter

My best guess would be 87 or 88. The range puts it from 85 to 89. But the number you’ve given would more likely be farther into production. Although Sako wasn’t always orderly chronologically. This was also the beginning of when CNC machines were utilized in production. Take care.

Sean