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What's your favorite .22?

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

Spaher, I killed my first deer at 9 years old and my Dad said very quickly ,now son you're going to learn how to gut and skin a deer! He did help me but instructed and I learned quickly. So moral to the story "don't kill it if you aren't ready to take care ot it".
 
Hello Sako Lovers,
I too love .22 Rimfire Rifles. I have a Winchester Model 52C target rifle made in 1961 with beautiful figured walnut, mounted with a Unertle Varmint scope. I also have 4 Brno's. A No. 1 made in 1949 in VGC. 2 No.2's made in 1956 which was the first year that the No. 2's came out.#, one of which has been screw - cut for a sound - moderator. And 1 model No. 2 which was made in 1974, and has a lovely figured stock. I too missed out through my own fault back in the 1990's on a Winchester { Miroku } 52 Sporter.
Blackjack
 
Second only to my 17 caliber addiction, is my enjoyment of 22 rimfires.

Where to start??...... I guess the beginning.
At about 7 or 8 my younger uncle showed me the family's "Winchester 22 hex barrel" rifle........beautiful.....actually a Win 61 Octagon barrel. Four decades later, I ended up with it.......never to leave the family.

After college, more 22's followed. A Ruger Mk.1 7" target, Win 9422M, Savage-Anschutz 54M, Anschutz 54.18MS, Kimber "S" Series 22LR and 22Mag, Kimber Custom Match 22LR(w/ Leupold 2.5-8X...with fine duplex reticle and parallax reset to 75 yards), and factory Remington 40X Sporter 22LR repeater.
More handguns......S&W41(w/ extra barrels, weights, trigger guard), S&W48(w/extra 22LR cylinder), S&W648 6", H-S Victor 6", H-S Supermatic Trophy, Ruger Mk.II 5.5" S/S with muzzle brake & target grips(plus AMT Lightning 10" HB upper w/ 4X Leupold LER scope.....great for pickup frog hunting around ponds), Kart 22LR target pistol(personal build).
Probably missed a few......

A couple of pics....
Kimber-Custom-Match22-LR.jpg

Kart22-AMT.jpg
 
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I've owned many 22s over the years (my first, when I was 12, was a Winchester M69A), and I guess my current favorite is my most-recently acquired 22, a custom rifle built on a Sako P94S action by Ed LaPour (metalwork) and Bruce Farman (stock work and engraving):

UulVLyX.jpg


Four years ago, I put up the following thread on this forum giving all the details about this custom build, and, if you're interested, here's the link:
https://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/custom-sako-p94s-rifle.13238/

Prior to that acquisition, I guess my fave was one of a couple of full-custom rifles built by Ed and Bruce on Kimber 82 actions, one an 82B in .22LR with an octagonal barrel that Ed LaPour made up for it, and the other an 82A in .22WMR with custom barrel. Here's the 82B with some pics of the metalwork, one showing the custom scope mounts and the other, the hinged-floorplate bottom metal made by Ed LaPour:

PIpbfzw.jpg

tjFDTKk.jpg

rNF9agm.jpg


Some thoughts on rimfire cartridges

I've owned three .22WMR rifles, one the custom Kimber mentioned above and the other two a pair of Anschutz 1720s on the Anschutz 54 action. I sold the Annies. The problem with the .22WMR is the lack of high-quality highly-accurate ammunition. I've been unable to get the kind of accuracy I can from my .22 LRs with the WMR. Both the custom .22LRs shown above (the Sako and Kimber) will put 5 shots into about .30" or so at 50 yards with match-level ammunition (Eley, Lapua, RWS). (Mind you, both have custom Win. 52D match chambers and have been carefully pillar-bedded, and both have superb triggers.) The best I could do with the WMRs has been more like .50"-.60" at 50 yards (so approximately 1 MOA). Since accuracy is a high priority for me with any of my rifles, I've never been completely satisfied with my .22WMRs. The best .22WMR ammo I tested was the Remington Premier ammo with the 33-gr. Accutip-V bullet. My custom Kimber .22WMR (pillar-bedded with a tuned trigger) will hold that ammo into about .50" at 50 yards. I guess I've just found the .22LRs more fun because of their really fine accuracy.

For a high-accuracy rimfire out to 125 yards or so (so a better rimfire hunting rifle), I purchased an Anschutz 1727F--the Fortner-actioned straight-pull model--in .17HMR (pic below). Accuracy is aided by the superb Anschutz 5020 two-stage trigger which I've set to about 2 oz. in the second stage. Even though there's currently no match-level .17HMR ammunition available, that rifle will put 5 shots into about .35"-.40" at 50 yards with the 17-gr. Hornady V-Max load and stays well below MOA at 100 yards. After reading many reports about both the .22WMR and .17HMR, it seems that most shooters have found the .17HMR to be the more accurate cartridge, at least in terms of the currently-available factory ammunition.

After experience with both the .22WMR and .17 HMR, I've come to the conclusion that the latter cartridge is a better bet for varmints and small game out to 150 yards max, although I might choose the .22WMR for coyotes out beyond 100 yards. The two cartridges produce roughly equal energy figures (the .22WMR is ahead in that regard at shorter ranges, but the .17HMR overtakes it in kinetic energy delivered at around 140-150 yards), and both produce greater energy at 100 yards than does the .22LR at the muzzle, but the trajectory of the HMR is considerably flatter--with its 2550 fps MV--than that of the .22WMR (2000 fps MV). If both are zeroed at 100 yards, Hornady shows that the 17-gr. Hornady V-Max (polymer-tipped) bullet will be down 2.60" at 150 yards, whereas the 33-gr. Accutip-V bullet in the Remington Premier .22WMR ammunition, similarly zeroed, will be down double that--5.32" at 150 yards. (With the same zero range, the .17HMR is down 8.54" at 200 yards, while the .22WMR is down 17.11" at 200 yards.) With its generally superior accuracy (as typically reported and as I found in my own testing) and flatter trajectory, the .17HMR looks to me like the better rimfire small-game cartridge, particularly if shots out to 150 yards are contemplated. The MPBR (for small animals: ± 1.5") for the .22WMR cartridge is about 125 yards, for the .17HMR, about 165 yards; the .17HMR gives the shooter about 40 more yards of range than the .22WMR.

jhq08sG.jpg


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SouthPender, those are some spectacular wood stocks. Eye Candy.... congratulations and to top it all off, shooters.
Cheers
 
The problem with the .22WMR is the lack of high-quality highly-accurate ammunition
I've certainly found this to be true. People forget that the .22WMR uses a case larger than the diameter of its jacketed bullet, unlike the .22LR which uses a case the same diameter as its lead (sometimes plated) bullet. The LR is better adapted to mass manufacturing techniques, while the WMR has to be manufactured in a manner very similar to centerfire rounds. So, when have you seen "benchrest" accuracy from centerfire factory loads? Good accuracy, maybe, but not "benchrest", so to speak. Being trans-sonic also hurts the WMR to some degree.

Years ago I came across some .22WMR by RWS and bought a small supply of it. It shoots the best of any WMR ammunition I've ever tried in my Kimber 82, so I've hoarded it for years and only get it out when I need gilt-edged accuracy from a WMR. Its velocity is also 75-100 fps above other 40-grain WRM loads. On average, the next in line in accuracy for me has been the original Winchester 40 grain ammunition. I've had very little luck with ammunition with bullets weighing more (Federal 50, Win 45) or less (CCI and Remington 30 to 35). But guns are individuals so "your mileage may vary".
 
Weeeeeelllll........about the 22WMR.....

One of these days, I guess I'm gonna have to dig out my old 22Mag "unloading and reloading" set-up equipment, and take some pictures.

Basically it uses an RCBS press mounted bullet puller, "special" shell holder, sandbags, and face shield.......you get the idea.
The bullet seater......think Wilson type, but using Lee Loader parts.......not very high tech.

I mostly used Win 22Mag ammo.......and pulled the factory copper-clad bullets. Re-measured the factory fine ball powder.......most times, slightly more.
Chamfered the case mouth, and seated a Speer 40gr. spire-point bullet(this was about 1976)........using thin washers to adjust seating depth.

My Savage-Anschutz 54M went from 0.5" at 50 yards......to about 0.35".

Great old times.......

(edit: add a Russian Izhmash 22Mag and an AMT AutoMag II 22Mag to previous post.)
(another edit: add a Win 63)
 
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Thanks to South Pender for some very interesting information about .22WMR and .17 HMR rifles and ammo. My Mannlicher-stocked CZ 455 in .22WMR shoots right around MOA (0.5" at 50 yards, 1" at 100) with Hornady or Winchester ammo in the 30-35 grain range. One of the CCI offerings also shoots about the same; I forget which one offhand. The CZ 452 in .22LR shoots slightly better at 50, but it also has a 3-9x scope as opposed to a 6x on the 455, and with my eyesight the more powerful scope is an advantage. The 455 in .22WMR is much less accurate with 40-grain bullets; I suspect it's a question of barrel twist. I'll shoot up the leftover 40 -grain ammo in revolvers. I have not tried true match-grade ammo in the .22LR. My most accurate .22 is probably a Remington 513T, but it doesn't have a scope on it so I haven't shot it to its true potential. I'm quite happy with the 455 the way it is and plan to do more testing at 100 yards with it. The comments on the .17WMR at 100+ do make me think I might try one some time.

The Kimber rifles an the photos are beautiful. Reminds me that I've always sort of wanted a rimfire Kimber. I was watching a nice one in .22WMR on Gunbroker a few days ago, but it sold for something like $2300 and I wasn't ready to spend that on a .22, even a Kimber with pretty wood. Maybe I'll find something at the huge gun show up in Phoenix the first weekend in December.
 
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Take your Pick. As long as it is a Sako, I love it.
P94S Varmint
M78 sporter and varmint/target
P72 sporter and varmint/target
M78 22mag
P54 sporter

On the list to be imported from finland (permits applied for, awaiting approval):
Early model P54 sporter
P54 target
Two P46's
Lives target rifle
(And also a tikka mosin nagant 22lr conversion trainer and a german made single shot trainer used by the Finnish civil guard.)


Still to be located:
P72 22mag.

However if by favorite, you mean the most shot, then probably the P94S varmint.
 
Years ago I came across some .22WMR by RWS and bought a small supply of it. It shoots the best of any WMR ammunition I've ever tried in my Kimber 82, so I've hoarded it for years and only get it out when I need gilt-edged accuracy from a WMR. Its velocity is also 75-100 fps above other 40-grain WRM loads. On average, the next in line in accuracy for me has been the original Winchester 40 grain ammunition. I've had very little luck with ammunition with bullets weighing more (Federal 50, Win 45) or less (CCI and Remington 30 to 35). But guns are individuals so "your mileage may vary".
Yes, I got some of that RWS .22WMR ammunition many years ago. I think I got it from "Dangerous Dave" at the Old Western Scrounger when he was in California. For me, it produced similar results to the 40-grain Winchester and Remington loads. I must have experimented with close to 10 different factory offerings until I found the Remington Premier 33-gr. load that gave the best performance (but not by much) in my .22WMR rifles.

Regarding the accuracy difference between the .22WMR and .17HMR, this doesn't stem from quality differences in the respective rifles. Further, I doubt that there is any particular interior-ballistics advantage to the .22WMR case necked down to .172 as in the .17HMR, although I could be wrong about this. The expansion ratio is higher in the .22WMR, and, at least with most centerfire cartridges, this often means better accuracy. Still, the .17 seems to outperform the .22. My guess is that, when Hornady introduced the .17HMR in 2002, they were marketing it (as a killing-power upgrade over the .22LR) as a better, more accurate, cartridge than the parent .22WMR. So, I think more care went into the design and manufacture of the .17HMR ammunition from the beginning than had typically gone into the .22WMR, and that quality control and manufacturing standards may have been, and may still be, a bit higher in the .17. I know that Hornady put a lot of thought and research into designing a good .172 bullet for the cartridge. I think they wanted glowing field reports with the new cartridge and for it to surpass the .22WMR in popularity. According to a few articles I’ve read, the .17HMR has caught up in ammunition sales to the .22WMR (with its 43-year head start) and may now be slightly ahead, although both are huge sellers. When it first appeared, .17HMR ammunition was considerably more expensive than the .22WMR ammo of the day. However, with improvements in the HMR manufacturing process, the two sell for about the same price today.

For those who may be interested, here's an article that explains some of the differences between the .22WMR and .17HMR:

https://chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_22WMR.htm
 
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So, I think more care went into the design and manufacture of the .17HMR ammunition from the beginning than had typically gone into the .22WMR,
Very likely true. The .22 WMR has been around since the late 1950's, and was derived from the older .22 WRF. The .22 WMR has never been considered a super-accurate varmint or target cartridge. Little was done with bullet design for many years. However, in recent years the ammunition makers have upgraded their offerings with redesigned, lighter-weight bullets, which perform better than the older designs in most rifles. I'll be interested to try the Remington 33-grain load in my CZ, which likes bullets in that weight range.
 
Just some thoughts based on real world, in the field experience with the 22 WMR & the 17 HMR. The 17 HMR would appear to have better ballistics than the 22 WMR, but it is only better on paper. Having shot thousand of rounds of each over the years at various ground squirrels & prairie dogs I found that the wind pretty much negates any advantage the 17 might appear to have. The 20 to 25 grain bullets just don't hold up with regard to wind drift to the 40 grain WMR pills. Any advantage in range because of the flatter trajectory the 17 has is "blown away" with wind drift. I consider them both to have a "effective" range, in the real world, of 125 yards with occasional shots to 150 or so under ideal conditions. 1.5 MOA accuracy is more than adequate for the ranges & target sizes they are used for. Speed & paper ballistics sell rifles in the gun shop, but in the field I'll take the 22 WMR every time.
 
The past decade has certainly been a strange one for shooters. DHS ammo purchasing, the war on terror, the act of a madman-Sandy hook started off a time of criticality that threatened our past time and rtkba, save for the Second ammendment, this almost catalyzed our worst fears. We experienced panic buying of guns and ammo, hoarding, shortages, price gouging, industry upheaval and an anti-gun government set upon never letting a crisis go to waste. Then the pandemic. Unprecedented times except during war rationing.

Personally, I was fairly well set in the .22 ammo dept. I had recently bought a case of Fed. bulk .22lr HP's from wally world and had run across a deal on RFC, buying 1500 rds of discontinued Fed premium 22 wmr with the 30 gr. Sierra JHP. This round is extremely accurate in four of my rifles, especially my 1720 Anny. I guard its use judiciuosly. These past dark ages curtailed my shooting drastically, but I refused to let it impact my son's childhood and exposure to shooting. I was able to work with his 4H leaders to find alternate sources for club ammo. Fund raisers helped too. These kids pulled their weight. Seeking .22 target ammo and 12 gauge trap loads became a constant in my life. I recalled my youth during this time as I didn't receive much support from my parents. A brick of .22 at Christmas if I was lucky. Odd jobs, mowing, shoveling snow, etc. provided my income stream for my hobby. I was a hunter though, and the opportunities were much greater in the 70's than now. Colony animals were a pestilence, ranchers welcomed shooters. Ammo was cheap. Life was good. Getting back to Ryan and his club, they were all able to shoot enough in practice and competitions. The volume of shooting far outpaced what i did in my youth. It is great to finally see ammo back on the shelves, costs are prohibitive however and with the economy and inflation out of control, I worry still. I don't think prices will adjust downwards much if any once things stabilize. So, if you see ammo, you might replenish your stocks a bit.

My 4H shooter has aged out, and is away in school. I don't know if he'll meet a girl, marry and have kids, or if I'll live to meet them. One thing that comforts me is they'll have a passed down heritage to adopt should they want it.

The lowly .22? .22's are life.
 
I don't think prices will adjust downwards much if any once things stabilize.
Copper is down over 20% this year. Lead is also cheaper. Of the basic ingredients for gunpowder (cotton and air), one has fallen from $1.20/pound to $0.75 and the other is still free, last time I checked. But shooters are still in a buying/hoarding frenzy. In a couple of years there will not only be cheaper ammunition on the shelves, but lots of widows selling their late husband's hoards at garage sale prices. I've been shooting and reloading for over a half-century and this pattern has happened more times than I can count.
 
Just some thoughts based on real world, in the field experience with the 22 WMR & the 17 HMR. The 17 HMR would appear to have better ballistics than the 22 WMR, but it is only better on paper. Having shot thousand of rounds of each over the years at various ground squirrels & prairie dogs I found that the wind pretty much negates any advantage the 17 might appear to have. The 20 to 25 grain bullets just don't hold up with regard to wind drift to the 40 grain WMR pills. Any advantage in range because of the flatter trajectory the 17 has is "blown away" with wind drift. I consider them both to have a "effective" range, in the real world, of 125 yards with occasional shots to 150 or so under ideal conditions. 1.5 MOA accuracy is more than adequate for the ranges & target sizes they are used for. Speed & paper ballistics sell rifles in the gun shop, but in the field I'll take the 22 WMR every time.
Interesting experience you’ve had in the wind, Paulson, with the .22WMR and .17HMR. My experience shooting both in windy conditions out to 200 yards is just the opposite. I’ve found the .17HMR to drift less, particularly at 150+ yards.

To lend a little more precision to this discussion, I consulted some ballistics charts that give wind deflection for the two cartridges and found the following:

FROM FEDERAL AMMUNITION - 10 mph CROSSWIND:

.17HMR 17-gr. V-Max bullet:
100 yards: 3.3” deflection; 150 yards: 8.1" deflection
_____________________________________
.22WMR 50-gr. bullet:
100 yards: 4.7” deflection; 150 yards: 10.7” deflection

.22WMR 40-gr. bullet (from Ron Spomer's article cited below):
100 yards: 4.9” deflection; 150 yards: 11.5” deflection

.22WMR 30-gr. bullet
100 yards: 6.0” deflection; 150 yards: 14.7” deflection
_____________________________________

Hornady give similar results for their .17HMR and .22WMR ammunition. They also give some 200-yard results (10 mph crosswind), with the .17HMR 17-gr. bullet showing 15.4” deflection at that range, while the .22WMR 30-gr. bullet showed 25.9” deflection.

What gives the .17HMR less wind deflection is primarily its greater muzzle velocity, and, to a much lesser extent, differences in ballistic coefficients of the bullets. In fact in the above comparison between the 17-gr. .17HMR bullet and the 50-gr. .22WMR bullet, that heavier 50-gr. .22 bullet has a slight advantage in BC. The .17 HMR bullet at considerably higher velocity just spends less time at each distance to be affected by the wind. The only two factors affecting wind resistance are BC and MV. Bullet weight by itself has nothing to do with it.

Links to the tables from which the above results came appear below, the first two to the Federal charts and the third to the Hornady table. In the Federal tables, scroll down to "Ballistics" and click on "Wind Drift."

https://www.federalpremium.com/rimf...rmint-and-predator-hornady-v-max/11-P771.html

https://www.federalpremium.com/rimfire/federal-small-game-and-target/game-shok/11-757.html

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/?autopopulated_title=17+HMR®+17+gr+V-MAX®+Varmint+Express®+Rimfire&weight=17&humidity=50&altitude=0&temperature=59&sightheight=1.5&shootingangle=0&pressure=29.92&maxrange=500&latitude=0&axialforceformfactore=1&azimuth=0&barreltwist=7&borediameter=&coriolis=0&windangle=90&windspeed=10&zerorange=100&zerorangeflag=1&velocity=2550&ballisticCoefficient=.125&ballisticCoefficientType=(G1)#!/standard

For those who like pictures better than tabled figures, the following illustrates the above pretty clearly:

i2ShbOz.png

The following article by Ron Spomer in Outdoor Life provides a nice comparison of the two cartridges, including some tables that cover resistance to wind. Ignore the third cartridge he considered, the .17 WSM, which is not part of this discussion.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/guns/rimfire-showdown-best-rimfires-of-all-time/

He writes:

"The .17’s [.17HMR] wind drift advantage over the .22 WMR helps sell me. This surprises many shooters who have too often heard that heavier bullets deflect less in winds than do lighter bullets. No, it is high B.C. bullets that deflect less. Muzzle velocity contributes, too. The faster the better. Less wind deflection of 1.5-inches at 100 yards may not seem huge, but its on the ragged edge of a miss on those 2-inch targets."

I would argue that it is primarily the greater muzzle velocity that accounts for the .17HMR's superiority in resistance to wind.
 
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I was just conveying my personal experience in the field shooting at real targets under real conditions. I have no way to dispute your paper ballistics claims & charts. Enjoy what you do & don't make it a contest about who is "right". For Christ sake, you wrote a lengthy treatise with charts & references about something as trivial as the ballistic differences between a 17 HMR & a 22 WMR to show the meaningless differences between the two??? Is it that important? OK, you are right! Happy now?
 
Wow! Sorry you’re offended by my post, Paulson. I went into some detail mainly because the reality seems really counter-intuitive to most shooters, who are under the misconception that a heavier bullet should buck the wind better than a lighter one, but also because I think it enables us to better understand shooting in the wind and what we can expect in this regard from rimfire cartridges like the .22WMR and .17HMR. As for whether the differences in ability to handle wind between the .22WMR and .17HMR are “trivial” or “meaningless,” I’d just say that a difference in wind drift of 3 to 6 inches is the difference between a hit and a miss on a small animal.

The level of detail that seems to have upset you is probably a function of my 45 years as a research scientist. In that capacity, examining phenomena and publishing research findings has required presentation of as much and as comprehensive evidence as is available and providing as clear and insightful an interpretation and presentation of this evidence as possible. Such practice is the coin of the realm in the world of science. So perhaps the level of detail in my post just illustrates that "old habits die hard.";)
 
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Gentlemen! Please,
Let us use this fine forum as a tool for knowledge. levity and mutual help.
What I have learned by viewing the many interesting posts on this site is that everyone has something good to contribute. & there are only three absolutes in this life " God is great, Beer is good & people are crazy"

Happy Veterans day!!
 
I'm late to the party, but here's a few 22's and a shotgun that have been lifelong favorites of mine. The top rifle in the first photo is a grooved receiver pre64 Winchester 63 semiauto. It was made in 1958 which is the last year of production. A few were produced on special order after 1958 using spare parts. This model is the first rifle I fell in love with when I stopped in the Western Auto hardware store to look at rifles walking home from my paper route. The bottom rifle is the second 22 rifle I bought. It's a 1971 made rifle I purchased new. It's an Original Golden model 39A. I love the ones made for a few years in the early 70's because the forearms were very slim. This is my favorite 22. The top rifle in the second photo is a 1963 made Browning Takedown. It's topped with a period 3/4" tube Browning 4X scope mounted with the integral base and rings made by Browning specifically for the little takedown. My Mom and Dad gave this rifle to me for high school graduation. I though I would include a photo of a favorite shotgun to show you guys what stopping by Western Auto to look at 22 rifles on the way home can lead to. After handling the Win. 63 for 10 or so minutes, I always played with the Winchester Model 42's for a couple of minutes before being told by the owner to go on home. So about 50 years later, I came across this Winchester Model 42 pre war (made in 1940 or 1941) Skeet Grade, solid rib, straight grip, very crisp, like new unmolested condition shotgun. And I couldn't pass it up.

Win.63 & Marlin39.JPG Win.42 & Browning Takedown.JPG
 
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