Differences between AV and 85?

[RangerAV]

I wasn't able to find an existing thread describing the differences. If there is one already, can somebody please point me at it?

Or if there isn't one... can folks describe what's changed?

The 85 seems to get decent reviews, aside from the pesky ejection issue... which seems to have maybe been solved by now? Are there any other warts on the 85? Or is there any mechanical reason to prefer an AV over an 85?

-Chris

 

[stonecreek]

The A-V is a traditional design turnbolt based largely on the 98 Mauser system with various modifications and refinements. It is the successor to the L61R and A-III with little in the way of fundamental changes since the L61R was introduced in 1961.

The Sako 85 is entirely different, having three forward locking lugs, a different extractor and ejector system, and different magazine concept. In between the A-V and the 85 came the L691 and the Model 75, so the A-V and 85 are separated by two generations of actions.

So, it is a bit of an apples and oranges question. Either can certainly provide a platform for accurately firing a projectile. Which you prefer depends on your personal tastes and perhaps which one you are more accustomed to. Never having fired an 85 I would personally prefer an A-V (better yet, an L61R), but that is a personal preference.

 

[bigcountry4me]

Stonecreek has covered many of the aspect differences, another would be the difference in how each mounts to the stock. The AV utilizes a traditional/conventional recoil lug. Obviously, the design has been around for better than a century.

The 85 is a completely different design. The underside of the action utilizes a rectangular boss. The center of the boss is threaded to accept the front guard screw. The boss is matched with an “L” shaped piece of aluminum which is inserted and screwed behind the stock lug on wood rifles. Synthetic stocks simply have the piece tightly inserted. The piece of aluminum has a female cut to accept the boss, and a mounting hole for the guard screw. When the barreled action is inserted the boss is inserted into the cut. Once properly tightened its very stable.
Also, in front of the boss is a cut channel. This works with aftermarket stocks which utilize an aluminum bedding block.

I’ve personally utilized this option, and have the utmost confidence regarding fit. We also have 85’s which are standard and have not had any issues. The change may have been an effort to reduce production cost but I have no solid information to support that.

 

[RangerAV]

Thanks, guys, that gets me started. I guess I didn't even notice an L691, and I know I didn't pay much attention to the 75 and 85 intro advertising... just assumed they were evolutionary changes...

Can folks who have both say whether one or the other action runs smoother, more easily, faster, without binding, etc.?

I've been comparing my AV to a short action Rem 700 Titanium, and the AV seems at first blush to be much easier to run.

-Chris

 

[bigcountry4me]

Thanks, guys, that gets me started. I guess I didn't even notice an L691, and I know I didn't pay much attention to the 75 and 85 intro advertising... just assumed they were evolutionary changes...

Can folks who have both say whether one or the other action runs smoother, more easily, faster, without binding, etc.?

I've been comparing my AV to a short action Rem 700 Titanium, and the AV seems at first blush to be much easier to run.

-Chris

We own AV’s, L61’s, AIII’s, L579’s and L461’s. Have never had a binding issue, ever. The only Remington we own is a Light Tactical Rifle, no binding either. Smoothness would favor Sako, even with the additional bolt guide metal contact.

As stated, we have some 85’s as well. Smoother than both traditional Sako and Remington. This is simply based on bolt design. Least amount of friction points possible. Take a look at some online photos.

Faster is typically a result of action length, not so much in the design, although you could argue a smooth action is faster. Having that in mind in my typical scenario faster doesn’t matter, it’s all about reliable and dependable equipment.

 

[RangerAV]

Thanks, Sean. Can you point me at some pictures? I'm either not seeing detailed photos on the SAKO website... or else I dunno what I'm looking at.

Agree: Reliable/dependable is primo. Just seems my AV and my (essentially the same action length) Model 70 are also ending up being "faster" (for me) compared to the short action 700. Trying to diagnose why that is...

And if necessary, whether an 85 Finnlight needs to replace the 700 Titanium.

Interesting to hear your thoughts about the 85 being smoother than even an older traditional SAKO. That helps.

BTW, what is metric 14x1 barrel threading? Is that 14mm x 1cm? Would seem useful for a suppressor to just start out with factory-threaded muzzle, but I dunno that I've seen suppressor brands offer much in the way of metric threads... (haven't looked all that closely, though...).

-Chris

 

[bigcountry4me]

Thanks, Sean. Can you point me at some pictures? I'm either not seeing detailed photos on the SAKO website... or else I dunno what I'm looking at.

Agree: Reliable/dependable is primo. Just seems my AV and my (essentially the same action length) Model 70 are also ending up being "faster" (for me) compared to the short action 700. Trying to diagnose why that is...

And if necessary, whether an 85 Finnlight needs to replace the 700 Titanium.

Interesting to hear your thoughts about the 85 being smoother than even an older traditional SAKO. That helps.

BTW, what is metric 14x1 barrel threading? Is that 14mm x 1cm? Would seem useful for a suppressor to just start out with factory-threaded muzzle, but I dunno that I've seen suppressor brands offer much in the way of metric threads... (haven't looked all that closely, though...).

-Chris

We have owned in pure numbers more vintage Sakos than any other brand for a very long time. The quality and operation speak for themselves. We bought our first 85 in a Finnlight for my wife. She simply needed a lighter rifle for our type of hunting. I’ve been impressed in all aspects. Her rifle is scary accurate. Since that purchase we’ve bought a few more. However, these modern versions do not have the same glorious feeling in the field as the vintage rifles we own. The 85’s are like tools, if you will.

Do a search, and simply type “Sako 85 bolt photos”. You should get plenty of results. Also you can type “Sako 85 action mounting boss”. This should show the typical 85’s taken apart.

I’m not familiar with fine metric threading specifically regarding suppressors and brakes. I do know 14x1.0 = thread x pitch. Most threading I see is 1/2 x 28, or 5/8 x 24. I recently bought a Seekins PH1 precision rifle. The supplied brake and threading is 5/8 x 24.

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Thanks, Sean. Can you point me at some pictures? I'm either not seeing detailed photos on the SAKO website... or else I dunno what I'm looking at.

Agree: Reliable/dependable is primo. Just seems my AV and my (essentially the same action length) Model 70 are also ending up being "faster" (for me) compared to the short action 700. Trying to diagnose why that is...

And if necessary, whether an 85 Finnlight needs to replace the 700 Titanium.

Interesting to hear your thoughts about the 85 being smoother than even an older traditional SAKO. That helps.

BTW, what is metric 14x1 barrel threading? Is that 14mm x 1cm? Would seem useful for a suppressor to just start out with factory-threaded muzzle, but I dunno that I've seen suppressor brands offer much in the way of metric threads... (haven't looked all that closely, though...).

-Chris

Most if not all of the American made rifle suppressors will be threaded 1/2x28 or 5/8x24. Some pistols like the 9mm's are threaded with a 9/16 diameter. The diameter of the barrel dictates want diameter the threads can be cut, as the suppressor needs a shoulder to tighten up against. For example, a 1/2" diameter thread needs a minimum barrel diameter of .628 (5/8") to give a shoulder 1/16" wide. If you buy an unthreaded barrel you may have to cut the barrel back to get the necessary diameter to match your suppressor threads. Good news is several companies make adapters to screw on your barrel thread to match whatever your suppressor thread is, so you have a lot of options to make whatever you get to match up. Just a good idea to check all this BEFORE you buy things, especially if you have metric threads involved. You can always cut existing threads off & rethread to match what you need, as well. 14x1 metric thread is 14mm diameter with a 1mm pitch (distance between threads) or 25.4 threads per inch.

 

[RangerAV]

As stated, we have some 85’s as well. Smoother than both traditional Sako and Remington. This is simply based on bolt design. Least amount of friction points possible.

We bought our first 85 in a Finnlight for my wife. She simply needed a lighter rifle for our type of hunting. I’ve been impressed in all aspects. Her rifle is scary accurate. Since that purchase we’ve bought a few more. However, these modern versions do not have the same glorious feeling in the field as the vintage rifles we own. The 85’s are like tools, if you will.

Thanks, that's all useful input.

Good news is several companies make adapters to screw on your barrel thread to match whatever your suppressor thread is, so you have a lot of options to make whatever you get to match up. Just a good idea to check all this BEFORE you buy things, especially if you have metric threads involved. You can always cut existing threads off & rethread to match what you need, as well. 14x1 metric thread is 14mm diameter with a 1mm pitch (distance between threads) or 25.4 threads per inch.

That helps, too. I'm not all that hard over on a suppressor, just figured I'd eventually gravitate that direction... but I knew the typical U.S./Imperial sizes and couldn't figure out what to do with the metric notation. SAKO shows a couple suppressor models in their 2019 catalog, but I didn't yet see much more than the pics. And I wonder if those are easily available here in the States. Adapters sound like a solution, maybe.

I do see that sellers who actually might have (or might have had, sometime this century) an 85 Finnlight for sale don't ever seem to have the threaded version.

-Chris

 

[paulsonconstruction]

I have 4 suppressors that I can use on 8 different firearms. From my experience it has been easier to have an unthreaded firearm cut to the length you want & threaded to match the suppressor you choose.

 

[RangerAV]

I guess that sounds about right, too.

I don't suppose there were any AII "Finnlights" chambered for .260 Remington? If there were, I wonder what one of those might have weighed....

-Chris

 

[bigcountry4me]

I guess that sounds about right, too.

I don't suppose there were any AII "Finnlights" chambered for .260 Remington? If there were, I wonder what one of those might have weighed....

-Chris

Just a couple of things.
.260 Remington was introduced as a commercial cartridge in 1997. The A11 was phased out in 91- 92, or thereabouts.

Finnlight rifles began production after 1997, with the 75 model and have continued with the 85. Several 85 configurations are currently available in .260. I cannot remember if the model 75 ever was offered in .260. Maybe others would recall if the 75 was available in that caliber. Hope this helps.

 

[RangerAV]

That makes sense, Sean, thanks. I got my AV in approx '90... and then didn't pay much attention to (do any more shopping on) subsequent SAKO models. And didn't happen to think about needing a .260 until much later...

I wonder how they've made the Finnlight models so light. Stockwork, of course, but I'm surprised a size S in .260 (with its integral bases, 5.8-lbs) can weigh almost as little as the Rem Titanium in .260 with 3rd party 2 piece bases fitted (5.5-lbs).

[The CarbonLight (5.5-lbs) would be exactly the same, more apples to apples since the Rem stock is carbon fiber too... but an extra $1200 or whatever for ~5 ounces gets a bit too stratospheric for me.]​

OTOH, SAKO says the Finnlight weighs 5.8 lbs, whereas the retailer EuroOptic says 6.2-lbs. Not sure why that is, unless the retailer is for some reason including packaging.

-Chris

 

[Murkula]

Sean is very much on the right track here:

Sako L579 AII was phased out in 1992 and replaced by the M591. Sako 75 was manufactured between 1997 - 2006 and Sako started to make the 75 Finnlight (stainless action, fluted stainless barrel, synthetic stock) in 2001 and this model became available in .260 Remington around 2004.

The 75 Finnlight in .260 Rem weighted about 2.8 kg (6 1/4 lbs).

 

[RangerAV]

Thanks. Interesting their action sizes seem to be a mash-up of the current S/SM/L etc. style plus the older roman numerals...

The 75 twist says 1:9, whereas the current 85 are 1:8, better in my opinion -- without having done any extensive testing. I assume the 6.5x55 M96 I had back in the early 80's was maybe 1:8, that too without having done any additional research.

-Chris

 

[paulsonconstruction]

Thanks. Interesting their action sizes seem to be a mash-up of the current S/SM/L etc. style plus the older roman numerals...

The 75 twist says 1:9, whereas the current 85 are 1:8, better in my opinion -- without having done any extensive testing. I assume the 6.5x55 M96 I had back in the early 80's was maybe 1:8, that too without having done any additional research.

-Chris

Your 6.5 Swede M96 is more than likely a 1 in 9 twist. There are very few 6.5 bullets that can't be stabilized by a 1 in 9. There are a few very long extra low drag speciality bullets in excess of 140 grains, like some of the 150+ grain target bullets, that need a 1 in 8.5 or 8 twist, but everything else is fine in a 1 in 9. The 155 grain Lapua Mega bullets I shoot in my 6.5 Creedmoor are actually quite a bit shorter than the 140's that are so popular now & my OAL is well under the SAAMI maximum. They will stabilize easily in a 1 in 9. So I'm not quite sure why the 1 in 8 is "better", other than it meets the current "fast twist" craze everyone is fixated on. Can you actually name a 6.5mm bullet that you personally have shown won't stabilize in a 1 in 9 twist???? Just sayin'.

 

[RangerAV]

Interesting. Yes, I can NOT point to any given bullets that a 1:9 won't stabilize, so maybe I've just been bitten by the hype. And I guess that hype is what led me to the 1:9 guess for the M96, too. (And that Husqvarna M96 was only briefly, almost 40 years ago in Germany, when I didn't yet know the word "twist".)

I haven't even fired but one factory load through the .260 I've got -- 120-grain Remington AccuTip, which I guess is a Hornady SST -- and it shoots great. Some of my musings are in anticipation of a big loading project, but I've also got a .348 Winchester in the queue before that...

-Chris

 

[Deleted member 14372]

Thanks, guys, that gets me started. I guess I didn't even notice an L691, and I know I didn't pay much attention to the 75 and 85 intro advertising... just assumed they were evolutionary changes...

Can folks who have both say whether one or the other action runs smoother, more easily, faster, without binding, etc.?

I've been comparing my AV to a short action Rem 700 Titanium, and the AV seems at first blush to be much easier to run.

-Chris

I have an AV long action and an 85 in 7 mm 08. To me the AV bolt operation is like glass. Super smooth. The 85 works perfectly but just doesn’t have the same feel. Could be the lack of a bolt guide??


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