condorclub
Member
Any ideas, Sauer, Weatherby, Browning Etc ?
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what rifle is comparable to a classic Sako?
- Thread starter condorclub
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Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum
anonymous310978
Banned
Maybe Steyr. High quality, independent design, range of action sizes. I would not compare Weatherby to SAKO, regardless of quality, as I consider Weatherby to be primarily a marketing firm, not a manufacturer.
stoneybroke
Well-Known Member
Mannlicher Schoenauer
I consider a Browning Safari from the 1960s/70s to be approximately the equal of a Sako Deluxe. Of course, some of them actually used Sako actions (and Browning's FN actions used Sako triggers), so that comparison is perhaps a bit incestuous.
Some people might argue that the late Kleingunthers manufactured by Voere in Europe were comparable. I've never owned or used one, so I don't have an opinion.
A Kimber of Oregon will bring similar or more money and is a really nice rifle, but not quite what a Sako is, in my opinion. If Sako had gone out of business twenty years ago, they would be bringing a lot more money, also.
I would rate the current Kimber of American and the "pedestianized" current production Sakos as similar. In fact, I might take a new Kimber over a new Sako. The Kimber is definately a better value due to its lower price.
Mannlicher-Schoenauer was a well-made rifle, but it's 1900's split-ring action that is poorly adapted to scope mounting makes it more of a novelty than a competitor for the very modern Sako.
And then there's the Dickson-Howa Golden Bear, an almost exact duplicate of the Sako L61R (save and except its aluminum bottom metal). It is not as well made, although it is very serviceable. If ever there were a "poor man's Sako", this would be it. I own one and list it with an asterisk along with my "real" Sakos. I carried it to Africa as a back-up rifle, reasoning that its loss due to baggage mishandling, confiscation, or whatever unknown or imagined hazard would be less than half the financial loss of a genuine Sako. I actually used it on the last day of our hunt and took a couple of animals with it. If you didn't know you weren't shooting a real Sako you would be a happy camper.
Some people might argue that the late Kleingunthers manufactured by Voere in Europe were comparable. I've never owned or used one, so I don't have an opinion.
A Kimber of Oregon will bring similar or more money and is a really nice rifle, but not quite what a Sako is, in my opinion. If Sako had gone out of business twenty years ago, they would be bringing a lot more money, also.
I would rate the current Kimber of American and the "pedestianized" current production Sakos as similar. In fact, I might take a new Kimber over a new Sako. The Kimber is definately a better value due to its lower price.
Mannlicher-Schoenauer was a well-made rifle, but it's 1900's split-ring action that is poorly adapted to scope mounting makes it more of a novelty than a competitor for the very modern Sako.
And then there's the Dickson-Howa Golden Bear, an almost exact duplicate of the Sako L61R (save and except its aluminum bottom metal). It is not as well made, although it is very serviceable. If ever there were a "poor man's Sako", this would be it. I own one and list it with an asterisk along with my "real" Sakos. I carried it to Africa as a back-up rifle, reasoning that its loss due to baggage mishandling, confiscation, or whatever unknown or imagined hazard would be less than half the financial loss of a genuine Sako. I actually used it on the last day of our hunt and took a couple of animals with it. If you didn't know you weren't shooting a real Sako you would be a happy camper.
model70hunter
Well-Known Member
For me observable quality is the first attribute. I once owned a Cogswell & Harrison .375 H&H on a Mauser action. It was not the pre war magnum action. It also was not a "bespoke" type that had hours of fitting, polishing and engraving. It was a straight forward using gun. Probably destined to be a young professional hunters first working gun. Do not get me wrong it was nice. Though one needs to be careful at the Tulsa spring gun show. First trips to the Tulsa gun show and Las Vegas can let one be blinded by the light. At home I looked closer, the quality was average, totally lacking the Sako's fine detail.
The best factory gun ever in america that had hunter and user quality was the model 70 pre war and perhaps up to 1956 was a higher quality gun than the later models as the fit and finish started to decline. I have a pre war '06 good quality, shoots great. I sold my pre war SG '06, it did have better fit and finish. I also have a very late pre 64 FW in 270. It shoots as good as any hunting rifle I have owned but the observable quality is lesser. I have 4 or 5 more of various ages they all shoot good but those made right after the war seem to have a better finish. If observable quality is fit, finish, smooth action and shooting ability, my pre war 70's are as good as my Sako.
The rest of the american factory guns are stamped out with the corporate press and do not compare with Sako. These guns are fine for what they are. Take a 700 for example, they have the weakest extractor on the planet. They'll probably never change it, I had one that broke every time they repaired it. Luckily it was a 270 deer rifle and not a large caliber for dangerous game. It spent a lot of time traveling between my house and Remington. I was never able to hunt with it. I had to buy a 2nd rifle for hunting. The biggest enhancement one can make to a 700 is to have a Sako extractor installed. I currently own one 700 in 243, it works fine. 700's shoot well but lack the refinement and observable quality of a Sako and remember to make the 700 better you add Sako parts.
I own 2 newer Kimbers, the quality is very good, actually they are excellent for the price. Close to a Sako? Yes very close, a close 2nd.
I've owned some of everyones guns at some point, I hate polished and shiney but have owned some older Brownings, the observable quality except for tight groups was excellent. But none shot as good as the Finnbears I had. Total quality goes to Sako. I've owned lots of Weatherby's, the best looking and best quality was a low 4 digit 270 WBY Mag on an FN action. It had it all, observable quality, same hole accuracy and did not shine after I used 0000 steel wool and polishing compound on the stock. Of all the guns I've foolishly traded away this is the one I'd take back. I also want my Twin Finnbears back, 270 and '06. With the 270 I bagged my first really large white tail, with the '06 I made my first 400 yard game shot.
Your question of what has the same quality as a Sako gave me plenty to think about. In the same price range, nothing does. Some older Mauser type actions offer rugged tough guns that do last and work, sloppily that is. A lot of the old Mausers and M70 bolts flop around like you're arm wrestling a first grader. However work they do. Do they have Sako quality? No and I would not pay the price some companies want for their guns, 2 or 3 or 4 times the price of a Sako will only net you maybe a slightly smaller group, maybe, and not beat Sako quality at all. Bartender give us the best in the house, well it looks like Sakos for everyone.
The best factory gun ever in america that had hunter and user quality was the model 70 pre war and perhaps up to 1956 was a higher quality gun than the later models as the fit and finish started to decline. I have a pre war '06 good quality, shoots great. I sold my pre war SG '06, it did have better fit and finish. I also have a very late pre 64 FW in 270. It shoots as good as any hunting rifle I have owned but the observable quality is lesser. I have 4 or 5 more of various ages they all shoot good but those made right after the war seem to have a better finish. If observable quality is fit, finish, smooth action and shooting ability, my pre war 70's are as good as my Sako.
The rest of the american factory guns are stamped out with the corporate press and do not compare with Sako. These guns are fine for what they are. Take a 700 for example, they have the weakest extractor on the planet. They'll probably never change it, I had one that broke every time they repaired it. Luckily it was a 270 deer rifle and not a large caliber for dangerous game. It spent a lot of time traveling between my house and Remington. I was never able to hunt with it. I had to buy a 2nd rifle for hunting. The biggest enhancement one can make to a 700 is to have a Sako extractor installed. I currently own one 700 in 243, it works fine. 700's shoot well but lack the refinement and observable quality of a Sako and remember to make the 700 better you add Sako parts.
I own 2 newer Kimbers, the quality is very good, actually they are excellent for the price. Close to a Sako? Yes very close, a close 2nd.
I've owned some of everyones guns at some point, I hate polished and shiney but have owned some older Brownings, the observable quality except for tight groups was excellent. But none shot as good as the Finnbears I had. Total quality goes to Sako. I've owned lots of Weatherby's, the best looking and best quality was a low 4 digit 270 WBY Mag on an FN action. It had it all, observable quality, same hole accuracy and did not shine after I used 0000 steel wool and polishing compound on the stock. Of all the guns I've foolishly traded away this is the one I'd take back. I also want my Twin Finnbears back, 270 and '06. With the 270 I bagged my first really large white tail, with the '06 I made my first 400 yard game shot.
Your question of what has the same quality as a Sako gave me plenty to think about. In the same price range, nothing does. Some older Mauser type actions offer rugged tough guns that do last and work, sloppily that is. A lot of the old Mausers and M70 bolts flop around like you're arm wrestling a first grader. However work they do. Do they have Sako quality? No and I would not pay the price some companies want for their guns, 2 or 3 or 4 times the price of a Sako will only net you maybe a slightly smaller group, maybe, and not beat Sako quality at all. Bartender give us the best in the house, well it looks like Sakos for everyone.
grizzlyone
Active Member
Grizz here, one of the best thing I likes about Sako is that the bolt handle and bolt body are machined
from one piece of steel. I know the Weatherby Mark V is also one piece. I won't own a rifle where the bolt handle is "brazed" on. On the new Kimbers, the bolt handle is threaded into the bolt body. This is acceptable to me... Somewhat. I own two Kimbers. A Montana in 300 WSM that I've killed two Idaho bulls with. And a Kimber model 84M sporter in 243 one of the many rifles I use for coyote killin. "Let the killing begin" Grizz.
from one piece of steel. I know the Weatherby Mark V is also one piece. I won't own a rifle where the bolt handle is "brazed" on. On the new Kimbers, the bolt handle is threaded into the bolt body. This is acceptable to me... Somewhat. I own two Kimbers. A Montana in 300 WSM that I've killed two Idaho bulls with. And a Kimber model 84M sporter in 243 one of the many rifles I use for coyote killin. "Let the killing begin" Grizz.
woodbutchertoo
Member
Husqvarna, Kleinguenther, Kimber, Steyr.....Own several of each and workmanship/accuracy is excelant..
I live not to far from the town,(Seguine, Texas), where Bob Kleinguenther built up his rifles from Austrian actions.
I'm a bit partial to Husqvarnas as my Mom's a Swedish imigrant and that side of my family is from Hjo, Sweden which is on the same shore a large lake as the town of Husqvarna.
However as others here have said, old Sakos have no piers.
I live not to far from the town,(Seguine, Texas), where Bob Kleinguenther built up his rifles from Austrian actions.
I'm a bit partial to Husqvarnas as my Mom's a Swedish imigrant and that side of my family is from Hjo, Sweden which is on the same shore a large lake as the town of Husqvarna.
However as others here have said, old Sakos have no piers.
bossmustangace
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Cooper rifles.
I currently own nothing but Sako rifles for hunting, but I would have bought a Cooper if I could have found exactly what I was looking for at the time. Whether or not I would have liked it would have been another thing.
For me, the Sakos just fit me. Every one I handle feels like "home" , so I keep buying more. And I top them all with Leupold scopes, so I never (ever) have to fiddle and fuss with anything when I'm hunting. I've been using this combo for so long, it's just second nature to me. I know I've taken a few animals that I probably shouldn't have been able to take, simply because I was so comfortable with my set-up, and that builds confidence. I know someone with 13 Ruger bolt guns, and he feels the exact same way about them. Go figure.
I currently own nothing but Sako rifles for hunting, but I would have bought a Cooper if I could have found exactly what I was looking for at the time. Whether or not I would have liked it would have been another thing.
For me, the Sakos just fit me. Every one I handle feels like "home" , so I keep buying more. And I top them all with Leupold scopes, so I never (ever) have to fiddle and fuss with anything when I'm hunting. I've been using this combo for so long, it's just second nature to me. I know I've taken a few animals that I probably shouldn't have been able to take, simply because I was so comfortable with my set-up, and that builds confidence. I know someone with 13 Ruger bolt guns, and he feels the exact same way about them. Go figure.
mcgrif2243
Banned
Hey all,
Just my two cents, but if you look at the company who's action has been used in more rifles around the world it would have to be the Fabrique Nationale (FN) Mauser action. As Stonecreek stated, the FN Browning High-Power Safari is indeed an equal to Sako quality. I also believe that in this discussion there should be a separation between commercial market rifles and custom/limited production rifles. When you start talking about Heym, Dumoulin, Mauser/Blaser, Cooper, Kimber etc. things change. Mannlicher Schoenauer made fine rifles which I own two of, however, they were not very strong actions, although butter smooth. Again, in my opinion and experience; pre-72 Sako's, and Browning High-power Safari's are, and were the best over the counter hunting rifles ever produced.
Regards, Will
Just my two cents, but if you look at the company who's action has been used in more rifles around the world it would have to be the Fabrique Nationale (FN) Mauser action. As Stonecreek stated, the FN Browning High-Power Safari is indeed an equal to Sako quality. I also believe that in this discussion there should be a separation between commercial market rifles and custom/limited production rifles. When you start talking about Heym, Dumoulin, Mauser/Blaser, Cooper, Kimber etc. things change. Mannlicher Schoenauer made fine rifles which I own two of, however, they were not very strong actions, although butter smooth. Again, in my opinion and experience; pre-72 Sako's, and Browning High-power Safari's are, and were the best over the counter hunting rifles ever produced.
Regards, Will
Ditto to Will's thoughts about the pre-72 Sakos and the Browning Safaris. I had a choice of a gift, back in the late 60's, between a Sako and a Browning Safari. I guess you might say that I got a "twofer", or both in one. I chose the Browning Safari in .243 with the beautiful classic stock and the finish that Browning was famous for, but it also had a Sako L579 "round top" action. What a rifle. The stock was all Browning. The finish on those classic Browning stocks was special, and they were known for that. They were expensive and they looked it. They stood apart from the all the other popular rifles on the shelf. The deep coated finishes, with those slightly darker-filled pores way down in there, was just plain elegant. (Yes, I know about the salt-Yikes). No other rifles on the shelf had wood like the Browning; never mind the finish on the metal. The metal was a lush, deep blue with meticulous polishing with an attention to detail that I could only see in those other rifles that were attracting a lot of attention: The Sakos
Sakos were every bit a match for the Browning, and in a side by side comparison, for factory rifles, the quality was way up there on both of them. The Sako, however, had some interesting concepts that set them apart from even Browning; concepts such as using actions that were matched to the caliber. Their actions were no larger than they had to be. What a concept. It is a tribute to Sako, that Browning chose the medium Sako L579 action for their Safari rifle offering in calibers 243, 308, and 22-250. Browning did also used an FN medium length small ring action of Mauser 98 configuration with the commercial changes, but as I recall, those are rare.
My love-hate relationship with Sako stock design, with the exception of the Deluxe model, which has really grown on me, basket checkering and all, is an ongoing struggle. And the trigger guard, well, I'm still working on that. I am saving a brand spankin' new L59 trigger guard/floorplate with the more conventional rounded trigger guard, and with button release in the trigger guard, for the next L579 that comes along at a a good price. I hope it fits, and I wish I had kept the second one I had. But yes, vintage Sakos are very, very cool.
P.S. to Woodbutchertoo: Can you update me on Robert Kleinguenther? I live in Austin, and he did rifle work for me years back. I haven't been able to locate him. Great guy with a great sense of humor. I also do woodworking as hobby, love Mesquite, love 264's, fish in the gulf, and hunt in South Texas. How 'bout them 264's for those long senderos? Drop a line.
Sakos were every bit a match for the Browning, and in a side by side comparison, for factory rifles, the quality was way up there on both of them. The Sako, however, had some interesting concepts that set them apart from even Browning; concepts such as using actions that were matched to the caliber. Their actions were no larger than they had to be. What a concept. It is a tribute to Sako, that Browning chose the medium Sako L579 action for their Safari rifle offering in calibers 243, 308, and 22-250. Browning did also used an FN medium length small ring action of Mauser 98 configuration with the commercial changes, but as I recall, those are rare.
My love-hate relationship with Sako stock design, with the exception of the Deluxe model, which has really grown on me, basket checkering and all, is an ongoing struggle. And the trigger guard, well, I'm still working on that. I am saving a brand spankin' new L59 trigger guard/floorplate with the more conventional rounded trigger guard, and with button release in the trigger guard, for the next L579 that comes along at a a good price. I hope it fits, and I wish I had kept the second one I had. But yes, vintage Sakos are very, very cool.
P.S. to Woodbutchertoo: Can you update me on Robert Kleinguenther? I live in Austin, and he did rifle work for me years back. I haven't been able to locate him. Great guy with a great sense of humor. I also do woodworking as hobby, love Mesquite, love 264's, fish in the gulf, and hunt in South Texas. How 'bout them 264's for those long senderos? Drop a line.
Echoing betop, I, too, am especially partial to the Browning Safari. This summer I fell into one - a 1966 .243, never fired new in box, and its acquisition led me to this forum where I learned all about the 1950-51, left-hand wing safety 218 Bee I inherited from my grandfather.
Re the Safari, its light weight yet solid feel and great looks coupled with the Sako "mechanics" make it just about perfect for me. I do prefer its rounded fore-end stock over the Sako flat one, but I like the integral bases of the pure Sako more than Browning's rounded receiver top. Nevertheless, I'll be looking for older Sako's to add to my small collection because I just like the company and how they decided to build their rifles. beesmith
Re the Safari, its light weight yet solid feel and great looks coupled with the Sako "mechanics" make it just about perfect for me. I do prefer its rounded fore-end stock over the Sako flat one, but I like the integral bases of the pure Sako more than Browning's rounded receiver top. Nevertheless, I'll be looking for older Sako's to add to my small collection because I just like the company and how they decided to build their rifles. beesmith
stoneybroke
Well-Known Member
To my eyes, for elegance of form and function, nothing comes close to the Mannlicher Schoenauer full-stocked rifles. I love my Sakos, but there is more engineering and fittiing in a MS magazine, then you will find in anything from Finland. Today, I think I would prefer the Sauer to anything currently manufactured by Sako/Beretta. YMMV.
mcgrif2243
Banned
Hey all,
Good thread about great rifles. I put the Browning Safari Grade as a near tie to my Sako's. I actually prefer how the Browning comes up to the shoulder more than my Sako's. I also love Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles. Although the two I have owned were well engineered as stoneybroke attested, they are, in my opinon, fragile compared to Sako's. I have had feeding problems with the rotary magazine in wet, cold weather. Also, they are not easy to disassemble and clean. The smoothest bolt ever made though, hands down. I would not buy anything knew from any production company. New production rifles have no character or class. That should Piss some people off:evil2:
Good thread about great rifles. I put the Browning Safari Grade as a near tie to my Sako's. I actually prefer how the Browning comes up to the shoulder more than my Sako's. I also love Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles. Although the two I have owned were well engineered as stoneybroke attested, they are, in my opinon, fragile compared to Sako's. I have had feeding problems with the rotary magazine in wet, cold weather. Also, they are not easy to disassemble and clean. The smoothest bolt ever made though, hands down. I would not buy anything knew from any production company. New production rifles have no character or class. That should Piss some people off:evil2:
tahoeranch
Member
I have pre 72 sakos deluxe and colt sauers. I love them both.
Two rifles in my safe come to mind. Anschutz 1433 mannlicher hornet made in 1974 and a pre 64 Winchester model 70 in 257 Roberts. Both rifles are mint condition and give off that quality look and feel that is so hard to come by today. But I must confess owning four Kimber rifles, three of them high grades, it is possible to get my attention with some currently manufactured hardware. Pre 72 Sako rifles still stop me in my tracks at every gun show I attend.
