Discussion in 'Discussions about L42, L46, L469, L461, AI, S491' started by kjeldsen, Sep 22, 2010.
Does any of you have any experience with above mentioned calibers?
I'm about to barrel an L-46 to 6x45, which is a 6-223 Rem. everything I've read says it approaches 6 PPC accuracy and has significantly improved oomph over the 223 at long range. (Oomph, for the uninitiated, means added long-range energy and improved ballistics.)
sbdjld8351: You might want to hold off on barreling a L46 to a cartridge that has an overall length greater than the action was designed to handle. A 223 Rem won't work so, I assume a 6mm-233 is the same length or longer depending on the bullet you use. It will work in the single shot mode, but the magazine feed & ejection will not function properly. The L461, A1, or the newer 85 action will work for this conversion as they are designed to handle the slightly longer cartridge. A L469 made to handle the 222 Rem Mag would also work.
The 6mm-223 has been around since 1965 as a wildcat & did have some following in the benchrest world for awhile. More recently it is gaining favor in the "Black Rifle" world as it is an easy conversion (changing out the barrel only) for the AR-15 type rifles. This makes the gun legal to use in states that require .243 cal & above to hunt deer, etc. It works great on the smallish deer in Texas & much of the south, but I would consider it marginal for the 250+ lb deer that roam in my backyard. Shots on animals should be no more than 200 yards. Heard that Black Hills Ammo was or is making it in bulk for the AR crowd. Yes, it does have more Oomph. The heavier bullet with higher sectional density & ballistic coefficient make you wonder why it wasn't chosen over the worthlesss (for combat) 5.56 they force our troops to fight with.
I want to thank you for your advice. I have changed my mind and will convert my 222 L-461 to 6x45. I'm not that taken with its performance with its present barrel, and magazine length may be adequate for the 6x45. Also, it already has a Sako heavy barrel target/varmint stock. I know it's a shame that this rifle was hacked, but I bought it this way years ago. At least whoever built it up added a Canjar single-set trigger and a Shilen Select Match Grade barrel, so it is really a quality job.
After messing with varmint rifles for 50 years, I like to think I know what I'm doing, but I have to admit that everything works better if I make my 461 a 6x45 and leave my L-46 a 222 or switch it to a 221 Fireball. (I do think I'll cut and rethread and rechamber the L-461s 222 barrel to fit my L-46; it's barrel may have lost its gilt-edged accuracy to a little throat erosion. I just can't seem to get much under 1/2-3/4" out of it.)
sbdjld8351: Just converted a L46 to 221 Fireball. Pics & info on the "barrel break in" post. If you are going to rebarrel your L46 anyway, I would highly recommend that caliber. It is nothing more than a 222 Rem shortened by .25" & with 40 gr. bullets you will get 3300 to 3500 fps depending on the barrel length. Less report, less heat, less fouling & more fun. If your barrel is already chambered for 222 Rem it's a real easy conversion.
I have a model 461 rebarreled to a 6x45 by the previous owner. It shoots and feeds great. My only complaint is since the 6x45 is exactly the 223 case necked up to .243 is that it is very difficult to differentiate from a 223 cartrige tha fits in my Sako AI.
I am going to rebarrel my 4x45 to 6 TCU. The 6 TCU has less body taper and a 45 degree shoulder that will easier to sort brass after a day shooting gophers.
I can't comment on the 6TCU but I can tell you that a 7TCU doesn't feed worth a darn in a bolt gun with a staggered mag. When you take that taper out of the case and increase shoulder angle all bets are off, just like the Ackley versions. The reason your 6x45 feeds great is because of that sloping sidewall and shallow shoulder angle of the 223. Not sure how much you shoot your 6x45, you might think about just changing to a nickel case, I had a friend that did that with a case he was concerned about mixing with his 223 stuff.
Nothing like being surrounded by the truth and still looking for the answer. Thanks, CMJR. You just solved my .308 and .7-08 ID problem.-Misako
Ever hear of anyone sticking a 6mm bullet in a 221FB case?
I use the nickel/brass solution to keep cases separated for calibers of which I have more than one gun. I've gone that direction with my .22 Hornets, and my .222's. The problem with my .222's is that I've accumulated too many of them, so now I'm segregating brass by not only nickel and plain, but by brand headstamp. But now I have a new problem: I've acquired two sweet-shooting .221 FB's and I don't want to let either of them go. .221 brass is only made by R-P and only in plain, unplated cases. I'm having a devil of a time keeping brass straight for these two guns.
I make all my 221FB, 20VT, and 17MK4 brass out of 223 brass using form dies. I keep them separate by using Rem commercial 223 brass for the 221FB and milsurp 223 in LC/20VT and WW/17MK4 for the other 2. The 300 Whisper gets the IMI.
CMJR: I tried running a couple of .222 and .223 cases through the .221 FL die, which worked okay, but I wasn't comfortable with having the presumably thicker brass of the shoulder area of the longer cases ending up as the neck area of the .221 (not to mention having to trim a quarter-inch or better off of the finished case neck.) Seems like there was also a "bump" midway of the neck where the old shoulder was. I'd be interested in a description of your process for reforming and any tricks you might use as I've never been shy about using refomed cases, but just haven't yet become comfortable with them in this little caliber. But considering the difference in cost between surplus .223 and factory .221 brass, I'd love to learn.
(Sorry for the hijacked thread; maybe you want to start a new thread with your answer.)
Don't know of anyone who has tried to neck up a 221 Fireball to 6mm, but I suppose it could be done. One would truly be in the realm of "experimental" with regard to load development. I doubt the cost of a custom reamer, custom dies, rebarreling, etc., etc., etc. would be worth it as the velocity drop using a 223 Rem case already puts the 6mm pills at the lower end of usability. Don't know the velocity or energy of the 7x33 Sako, but a 6mm Fireball may end up being in that range & thus a very specific use type cartridge also. If a guy has the time, money, & use for one it might be a fun project. Neck thickness & specific chamber dimensions would require someone with more knowledge than I have. Have a friend who tried some wildcat stuff years ago & it was EXPENSIVE!
Paulson- Wildcatting can indeed be expensive. My question came from looking at alternatives to my 6ppc as a moderate range coyote/doe/antelope rifle. Last year I came across an article and Hodgon load data showing the 6mmx222 getting near 3000 fps from a 75gr hp and BL-C(2) powder. That's identical to what I'm getting from my 6ppc with H335, which so far has proved very effective out to 150yds. I've ordered a rebarrel job from Mike Bryant on a custom A1 222 with a shot out barrel and I already have the custom dies from Redding. However, that little 221 fb case seems to be so effecient, I was just curious if anyone had tried a 6mmx221 and what their results were. If it would get near 6x222 velocity from a 75gr hp, then I could try it in an L46, also with a bad barrel. While the 6x222 with the 75gr hp seems to fit the magazine my L469 222 mag, I thought it more prudent to "sacrifice" the A1 custom 222.
My thoughts are that the 221FB case will be a little anemic shooting the small 6mm's. Doesn't mean it can't be done I just think your speeds on 70-75gr pills will be in the 24-2500fps range. If you reduce your bullet size down to 55-58's you might as well shoot a 22cal bullet, will probably have a better BC and definitely shoot flatter with better terminal ballistics. It's not how big a rock you throw, it's how fast you throw it, at least for hunting applications. I think your on the right track with a 6mm-222 and Mike Bryant in Wheeler Texas is one of the best smiths going. He built me a 6mm-47Rem custom and it's a laser, was even playing with it and took it to the Denton BR matches couple years ago. Finished in the middle of the pack in the HV class with it. I'm a big Mike Bryant fan.
Hi cmjr- Many Thanks for chiming in. I though you might have some knowledge/experience in this area. Everyone I've 'talked to in my area, even other gunsmiths, highly recommended Mike Bryant Mike suggested the 6x47 since he already has that reamer, but that only duplicates my 6ppc with a similar amount of powder (with maybe a small gain in velocity)...might as well just keep using my 6ppc rather than add the 6x47. You are right, 24-2500 fps from a 75gr 6x221 would be insufficient for my purposes. Have you had any experience with the 85gr Barnes TSX BT in your 6x47?
Bill, I shoot strictly 65-75's in my 6x47, barrel is a Hart 1-12". I would think that the 85 TSX might be right on the edge for the twist of my barrel. Does Mike have a 6mm-222 reamer, I thought he would have the 6x45(223 Parent)? I have a 222 L461 Deluxe that someone boogered up putting a Griffin Howe mount on the side of the receiver, a 6mm-222 sounds like just the ticket.
While my 6ppc varmint has a 12" twist that will stabilize the 85 sierra bthp, the 85 TSX is a longer bullet so 12" might be too slow. But I am planning on testing it in the 6ppc, and maybe a 13" twist 6br. I believe Mike said he only had the 6x47 reamer. He hasn't said, but I had assumed I would pay for the 6x222 reamer. If so, you'd be welcome to use it, so either way you'd have access to a 6x222 reamer with Mike. He's specifying the reamer to fit the dummy round I sent him with the 75 sierra hp seated so that the base of the bullet is just a tad above the neck-shoulder junction. Which brings up a question about the optimum way to seat a boat tail bullet...do you seat it so the base of the boat tail is at the neck-shoulder junction, or so the boat tail extends into the shoulder area with the boat tail to bullet shank junction just above the neck-shoulder junction? Gee...I hope that question is clear. BTW, I ordered a 10" twist Lilja barrel. It would be great to have someone else involved with a 6x222. If one can achieve the same results as Hodgon and Sam Falada, it's an amazingly effecient round that greatly improves on the 222/223/222mag performance at moderate ranges, at least based on the results I've had with my 6ppc and the 75 and 85 gr sierras.
I'm having a 6x45 barrel with a 1-8 twist put on my L461 in order to stabilize up to 100grs bullets. That is according to my gunsmith sufficient to stabilize the longer 85grs barnes TSX.
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