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Sako L461 O'Brien or H&R Ultra Wildcat .25 - Ugalde

Sako Collectors Club Discussion Forum

ricksengines

Sako-addicted
Hi Boys and Girls,

Have I got your attention yet from the title? Hopefully so. Well a long time ago I ended up getting my paws on a really unusual little rifle. If you have been reading my post about the O'Brien and H&R UW calibers then you already know that I am nutso over the L461 and the little guns that have been produced using it.

The rifle I came across started out as either an O'Brien or an H&R UW. Somewhere along the way it ended up in the hands of Wes Ugalde. He or one of his gunsmith friends put a new tube on the thing with a .25 Ugalde Roll Stamp for the caliber. I swear the thing still looks just like an O'Brien or UW except for the hole in the end of the barrel and the roll stamp.

Anyone out there have any additional information that they would like to add please chime in.
 
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Hi Folks, Here is some additional information that I hope you find interesting.

Wes Ugalde is the father of the Thompson Center Metallic Silhouette cartridges developed for TC Contender handguns. As I recall, when I discovered the .25 Ugalde Rifle my intention was to contact Wes and ask him about it. Unfortunately he passed away about six months before I found the rifle. But, as luck would have it, I ended getting in touch with a really good buddy of his (Ron Ryder) at Back Room Leather.

When I spoke with Ron, (at least I think it was Ron) he told me that Wes' gun logs had been given to him after Wes passed. We tried looking up the serial number on the Ugalde L461 but came up empty. That said, Ron told me that he remembered Wes making the barrel the for the .25 and rebarreling the L461. He couldn't recall if the original rifle was an O'Brien or UW so the trail ended there. I was not able to recover the original barrel but this stuff said what a neat thing to come across.

If anyone else can help out here I would really appreciate it. In addition, if anyone else has or knows of another Ugalde incarnation based on an O'Brien or UW rifle and the L461 please don't hesitate to add value here.

At this point in time I am waiting for RCBS to produce a set of dies for me so I can give the little rifle a try. Yep I am going to shoot this eventually because I know that Wes, Vern and Ron would want it to be that way and because these fine little rifles were meant to put holes in targets and take out varmints.
 
If you would post some pics of the rifle, I could offer my 2 cents worth.

This pic is of a rebarrelled/refinished Model 317 to 17 Mach IV.
2n1rzhi.jpg
 
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Hi Kevin. I will be glad to. Let me take a few pics and then figure out how to add the photos to the thread. I am also going to try to get a hold of Ron to see if I overlooked anything the last time I spoke with him about the Ugalde.

rick
 
Posting pics is pretty easy here, using the "image" box. I like using tinypic dot com

Since you're an O'Brien fan, here's a 17 Javelina.....with a "Javelina".
29c51cj.jpg
 
Hi Kevin, Thanks very much for the post and the help. I'm drooling already!!That is an O'Brien Presentation Grade if I am not mistaken. The Javelina and 17-222 are on my list to get may paws on. So difficult to find them and when they change hands it is between friends so they never see the light of day.

Have you ever seen one of Vern's Mach III builds? He used an XP100 as the base and put one of his 17-Mach III tubes on it. He made the barrel slightly longer than the Fireball barrel that came stock on the little XP100. Unfortunately not suitable for discussion on this forum but we might be able to converse about them offline.
 
Jim is pretty accommodating about most all rifles/firearms. Although this thread should probably be in the "Discussions about rifles built on Sako actions" forum. Maybe one of the moderators will relocate it.

Long ago, a friend of mine had one of the O'Brien 17 Mach III XP-100 pistols. It looked pretty much like any ol' XP-100.......sure was LOUD. O'Brien built a few of them with custom wood stocks.

Yes, the above 17 Javelina is an O'Brien Hultgren Grade rifle. I have never seen, or heard of, an O'Brien rifle in 17-222......even in any of the later years production of Ackley-O'Brien rifles.

The "closest" 17-222 I can imagine, is the Winslow Plainsmaster below.
behvsx.jpg
 
Hi Kevin

Well apparently O'Brien made the 17-222. I have never seen one either but apparently they are out there.

Back briefly to the Mach III. Interesting about the wood stock. When H&R went under their facilities were auctioned off in lots. The entire R&D department went as a lot and what do you think was in there? There were three XP110's in Mach III, all were still wearing the original plastic stock and living in the original leather cases. The Fireball barrel was tucked inside each box. The Mach III barrel was roll stamped with the caliber and O'Brien's Rifle Company, Las Vegas, Nevada.

Here is what I think is an interesting question, when did H&R switch to using the L461 round top action. I ask because every UW in 17 Rem that I have seen was put together using the round top action. I don't think the 17-223 were made on anything but the dovetail actions. So question is does anyone out there know the true story about the dovetail v/v round top l461 actions and what chamberings they were used on by O'Brien and later H&R?
 
Long ago, I posted the following.

"In 1968 H&R started the Model 317 in 17-223 and 223. In 1971 the 17Rem and 222 were added. In 1972 the 17-223 was dropped. By 1976 they were down to just the 17Rem and 223. All barrels were 20" long.

Note that O'Brien only ever produced rifles in 17MachIV, 17 Javelina, and 17 Magnum(17-222 Magnum). All barrels were 18" long, except the 17 Magnum....which was 20" long. Word was....that P.O. was po'd that H&R chose the 17-223 over his preferred 17 Magnum. Also note that "Ackley-O'Brien" rifles are......another story."

According to H&R's catalogs, the Model 317 rifles using round-top L461 actions were only produced in 1975 and 1976(the last two years of the Model 317's production), and were only in 17 Rem or 223. I'm pretty sure that Sako provided, to H&R, the entire barrelled action during those last two years. O'Brien only ever used dove-tailed L461 actions.

You state: "Well apparently O'Brien made the 17-222. I have never seen one either but apparently they are out there."
Since O'Brien never advertised one, his production records never listed one, and no one has ever claimed to have one.........well.........
Note: Not everything in the "Blue Book" is in fact.......fact. Just one guy's opinion.
 
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Hi Kevin
On my other thread where I was trying to clear up confusion over the O'Brien v/v H&R WC production calibers you commented that my breakdown of the calibers was correct. In the post I said that I believed that ORC also produced rifles in 17-222 and 17-223. So in fact ORC only ever made three calibers you listed and ORC listed in their ad. Perhaps the other two are Ackley/O'Brien versions.

The Blue Book of Gun Values ORC listing was derived from a series of articles printed in several different publications. I know because I submitted all of the reference material to BBGV to get them to put ORC in there. Now I have to go back and dig up that material to find out which author spoke about the ORC 17-222 and the 17-223 to see if I can verify the Ackley connection to those particular chamberings.

If you have access to the ORC production logs that is really neat. Did you ever post how many of each version ORC made?
 
My limited experience with the H&R 317 indicates that the early ones, which might be in any of the four cataloged calibers, had dovetails. The later ones, which seem to be found only in .17 Rem and .223, have round tops.

The barrel markings of the earlier ones seem to be "Worchester, Mass" while the later ones are marked "Gardner, Mass". I'm not sure if the barrel markings and dovetails coincide precisely. How about it, Kevin?
 
I wish I could buy rifles for what the Blue Book says they're worth and sell them for what they say they're worth. It's basically like the Pirates Code, sort of a guideline in which reality strays from the printed word quite often.
 
No book, Blue or not, ever opened itself up and pulled money from between its pages and bought a rifle. These are guides, not gospel. For what it's worth, I like the 'Standard Catalog of Firearms'. Not only are these people closer in reality to actual value, but they also note firearms that are 'sleepers' - in their own words guns with "rapidly rising values and/or significant collector potential". The Finnwolf is one such rifle they note as a sleeper.
 
Hi Guys,

I really would like to bring the focus of the discussion back to the subject of the L461 .25 Ugalde.

I finally got some photos of it and my bad I must be getting old because earlier I said I wasn't sure if it was built on an O'Brien or H&R UWC. All I needed to do was to look at the butt pad for the answer so let the pics speak for themselves.
PB280218.JPG
PB280219.JPG PB280221.JPG PB280222.JPG PB280224.JPG
Clearly it was originally an H&R Ultra Wildcat if I believe the butt pad. There are no other markings on the barrel other than 25 Ugalde. The photos don't do the rifle justice because there really isn't a mark anywhere on the little guy. I hope I didn't screw up by posting so many pics but I wanted everyone that s following this discussion to get a good look so they might be able to add some value to the discussion.

The action is the dovetail variety of the L461. What more can I say. Now, has anyone else ever seen one of these?
 
Nice pics of the rebarrelled M317. What is the action serial number range?

I am trying to figure out why the right rear of the ejection port has been opened(milled/filed/etc.) in a semi-circle to the rear. The 25x45 cartridge, depending on bullets used, may push the limits of the factory magazine box length of about 2.28". I would imagine that a close examination of the ejector, magazine box, and action feed ramp areas, is in order.

Has the bolt handle been chromed, nickled, or in-the -white?

The mounts and rings appear to be Bausch & Lomb. The purists on this board hate anything that screws against the top of the action, and will suggest some Sako mounts/rings. Or...........you could use my, and Stonecreek's, favorite.......Conetrol!!:):)
 
Hi Kevin

You have good eyes. You know I never really took notice of the modification that was done to the action. Tomorrow I will get the rifle out of the safe and disassemble. When I do I will take photos and post them for all to see and enjoy.

The bolt has bee chromed. There is also something weird going on with the bolt release tab. We'll all share in unraveling the mysteries tomorrow.

BTW the L461 handles the .223 just fine. I assume the modification (s) were needed to accommodate longer .25 caliber bullets.
 
Since the ejector/boltstop/bolt-release is a combined one-piece part......it would be an interesting part to examine.

edit: It's the ejector.......not extractor.
 
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If Wes Ugalde was wanting to shoot bullets heavier (longer) than 87 grains I'm guessing he needed to modify the mag, ejection bolt stop, & action port. I'm curious as to what you find out. The current 65 & 87 grain 25 cal bullets will work fine at 223 SAAMI length, but anything longer would require an OAL of around 2.35" in order for the case neck mouth be stay below the ogive. I almost went with the 25x45 when I built my 6x45 on a L469, but the length concerns deterred me. L469 allows 2.30" OAL to function, which is actually longer than the L461 can do.
 
OK fellows. I'm going to take it apart and get some photos up shortly. Old guys don't move as fast as they use to. At least not until they have a cup of coffee.
 
Hi Guys

Sorry it took so long to get this up but I had a little problem posting it and had to do everything over.

So, I took the .25 apart. Here is what I found..

The ejection side of the action was milled with an end mill to lengthen the port.
PB290228.JPG

The magazine port on the bottom of the action was lengthened as well. This work was done just in front of the trigger assembly.

PB290230.JPG

The magazine box was cut in half and plates were put in to make it longer.

PB290232.JPG

Next the trigger guard assembly was machined to accept the longer magazine box.

PB290237.JPG

The stock was machined to provide a larger opening for the new longer magazine parts compliment.

PB290235.JPG

And finally for some strange reason the bolt release mechanism was pinned to prevent the release mechanism from working properly. I gotta figure out why this was done, remove the pin and fix this.

All of the work was done expertly from what I can see. Feel free to jump in here with whatever value you can add.

rick
 

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